You’re Not Too Old, It’s Not Too Late(with Jamie Golden)

Nora recently got a question that asked, “Is 31 too old to pivot into a new career?” The short answer: NO! You’re not too old and it’s not too late to decide to live your life exactly how you want to. Nora’s joined by Jamie Golden, host of The Pop Cast, to hear your stories about making fresh starts and pivots – because no matter where you are, there’s always an option, and there’s always more life to live.

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

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I’m Nora McInerny, and this is Thanks For Asking, a call-in show about what matters to you. I am recording this from my studio space.

If you are watching this episode on YouTube, which is something you can do, it’s not gonna come out the same day as the regular podcast. I mean, it’s work to edit these videos. Grace does it, she does such a good job.

If you are watching this on YouTube, you can see, I am in a place I love. I hope I look like I love my life, I do. I am 40-ish, 42 is just simply not an age.

I believe that after 30, we should be counting by fives. So I’ll be 40 till I’m 45, after 45, I’ll be 50. That’s just how I’m gonna do it.

But this is not a version of my life that I could really conceive of when I was 25 years old. When I was 25 years old, I was so miserable. I was so miserable.

I lived in New York City with roommates that I absolutely loved. I’d always wanted to live in New York. I did live in New York.

I worked at a PR agency with other girls that I just loved. I had broken up with a long-term boyfriend. I did that at the Union Square subway, the sandwich shop, not the train station.

I was dating, which is a term I would use very loosely for how I interacted with other people romantically. I was partying. I lacked the vocabulary to convey to those around me that I was also in a constant state of fight or flight.

The sound of my BlackBerry, which was a digital leash that I was so proud to finally get from my work, it would haunt me in my sleep. Often, it would go off in my sleep because my work was simply so important.

I mean, we were launching shampoos, people. I was supposed to be working all the time and I was working all the time, or at least it felt like that.

Sometimes in my dreams, the little Microsoft Outlook email notification will pop up in the lower right-hand corner of my dream. I did not like my job. I hated my job.

I wasn’t good at my job. I was supposed to love this job because it was in New York City and it was PR, and this was at the same time as working at Teen Vogue on the Hills or working at Runway in the Devil Wears Prada.

This was a job that a million girls would have killed for.

I remember looking at jobs in other fields, fields that felt meaningful to me or interesting to me, fields like media, fields like public service, fields like education and thinking, man, if only I had chosen another path because now, at the age of

25, having invested three whole years of my life in this career, there’s simply no way that I could change my path. This is the trajectory I’m on, and it is too old for me to start over. At 25, I thought, well, I’m simply too old to start over.

I am no longer 25. Like I said, I am 40ish, and I would, if I could, go back through space and time, grab the 25 year old me by the shoulders and say, what are you talking about? It is not too late for you to change your mind a million times, okay?

Hey, like Shania said, like Shania told you when you were younger, okay? If you change your mind a million times, you want to hear him say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it that way.

That’s for any man of mine, but also that’s for any you of mine. Any version of yourself should feel the same way. I would say go, run, start over.

You have no responsibilities. You’re 25 years old. Your only bills are rent and shared utilities.

I think you’re still on your parents’ cell phone plan. Like get a grip. But I did not have, nor did I get a grip.

I just did it. I kept on keeping on with a career that gave me horrible anxiety. I pivoted slightly from PR into advertising and marketing, and I was also miserable.

I was also so stressed out. I was stressed out about banner ads, social media strategies that no one would ever see because it was a different time in social media.

It just didn’t matter, but it felt like it mattered, and I stayed in that career till I was 31. And I did not get brave suddenly. My husband died.

My husband died, and I just stopped going to work, and then they stopped paying me. And at this point in time, I did have responsibilities. At this point in time, I had a child.

I had a house with a mortgage. I had a car payment, medical debt, credit card debt, and no job. And I’m skipping over some bullet points, but I got here.

I got here to this place and this career. And 31 was an age that I couldn’t imagine when I was 25. And at 31, I really couldn’t have imagined being this age, but something happened.

I was six years older. Six years passes between 25 and 31. I counted that on my fingers.

At 31, I also felt like I could start over, right? I had all the time in the world, and also like I had no time at all. And I’m telling you this because I have heard this from many, many people.

Specifically, I got a question on Instagram, and I’ve gotten, since I got this one that I’m about to tell you about, I’ve gotten more of these.

When I do Q&As on Instagram, I get a random assortment of questions, but this question is why we are here today.

Every so often, mostly when I’m like very bored, very anxious, or on a flight, I will put up one of those question boxes on Instagram, and I’ll say, like, you know, ask me some questions, could be deep, could be shallow. I got this question.

It says, Also, is 31 too old to pivot into an entirely new career? And I replied, 31? Too old?

To pivot? Your career, my sisters? As long as you are alive, may you believe you are capable and worthy of expansion and exploration.

May you believe there is more? There is. St.

Cost Fallacy and the Worship of Youth has us thinking that 31 is old? 31 is so young, I don’t even know if you can drive a car or vote, like who let you on line? As Dr.

Edith Eager says, you’ll be 50 anyway. So do you want to be 50 doing what you do now? Or do you want to be 50 having switched lanes or attempted to switch lanes?

And yes, that is a very simplistic answer to a simplistic question. And sure, you know, is there new ones? But yeah, this is Instagram stories.

There are, of course, financial and cultural and sociological reasons why it might not be possible for you to start over regardless of your age.

I would never say, hey, if I can do it, you can do it because you cannot throw around general advice based on your own very specific experience in your own very specific life from a decade ago, might I add.

But I do think that we are so youth obsessed and our sense of time is so skewed. And I do think that we stay stuck in cages where the door has been open the whole time. And even still, sometimes I will get caught in that same kind of thinking.

We used to sell a poster in our store that said, it’s not too late and you’re not too old because I needed it on my wall.

So when I posted that response to Is 31 Too Late to Pivot, I got messages from people who had started over at all kinds of ages who were in the middle of starting over. And I said, OK, OK, this is an episode. And I got a message from today’s co-host.

Today’s co-host is another starter overer, another pivoter, Jamie Golden. She is the co-host of the podcast and we are going to bring you stories from people who have pivoted and started over and created their own fresh starts.

And the goal here is to remind you that you have options. The goal here is to remind you that you have a range. You have a lot of life left in you and around you.

There is more for you on this earth than what you currently see in front of you. You’re not too old. It’s not too late.

Let’s welcome Jamie Golden to the show. So Jamie, you are here, because you replied to my Instagram story, where I had palpitations trying to reply to this woman who thought 31 was too old to pivot her career.

And you said, should I call in, with me being 38 and a social worker for 16 years? And then I start over with a pop culture podcast where I recapped The Bachelor, Rose Emoji. And I said, actually, yes.

So it does pay to slide in to Nora’s DMs because you might get to be a guest on her podcast.

So, lesson learned. Yeah, so, because I have so much, immediately when I read that, I had so much compassion because I know what it’s like to be 31 and being like, what? Is this, is this correct?

Did past Jamie put us on a path we didn’t want to stay on? And it’s been great. And I’ve enjoyed being a social worker.

But for me, I did what many people did when they went to college in the 90s. They listened to an advisor say, just study what you like.

And so I ended up with a sociology and women’s studies degree with a minor in African-American studies and then moved back to Alabama and went, oh, I can’t get a job.

So I ended up becoming a social worker because the state of Alabama is like, what’s your degree in? Philosophy? Come on board.

You can you can license foster homes. It’s great. But I ended up the same principles, same principles.

And I did go to grad school for social work because I was like, oh my gosh, I really love this. I worked in child and family welfare. I worked in the public child protective services.

And then I worked in some faith based nonprofits. And I did work. My kind of final hurrah was at a child and family welfare, where I did camps for adopted kids and and recruited families to adopt kids out of foster care, which was a joy.

And I’m still involved with nonprofits that do that, which is super fun. But I also, just in the same way you have a liberal arts degree that you might not can use, I also in the aughts started blogging. Oh, yes.

Because I was like, Oh my God, I have a lot to say about Cheez-Its and maybe people will want to read it. And they didn’t. So seven people read my blog.

But I ended up, I was like, it was the girl boss era, you know, it’s just I had the mug, you know, that was like, get it B word. And like, I was like, okay, I have to join a writing forum. And I’m not a writer at all, not even 0%.

And I was like, I’ll join this writing forum.

And it’s all these authors who want to get publishing deals, and me, who has a blog called Jamie’s Rabbits, which by the way, if that’s your username, you’re either selling rabbits or teaching people how to cook rabbits.

What were you doing with rabbits?

ADHD, chasing rabbits.

That’s very clever.

Thank you.

They weren’t ready for it.

Explaining it for seven years. And neither was I. Yeah, exactly.

So it’s always like me and Jamie Oliver that come up in the Jamie’s Rabbits, but he is cooking an entree, and I am talking about the Kardashians.

So I started this blog, I ended up in a writing forum, and a guy in there was like, oh, you’re weird, you’re weird and funny. Would you like to guest on my blog? And his name was Knox McCoy.

And fast forward in that age 38, because I’m doing this in my mid-30s, as a, like, I have a day job, I have a life.

I’m just like writing and be like, let me take pictures with a, let me get a Nikon, because the Pioneer woman has a Nikon, and let me get a Nikon camera that I cannot afford on a social work salary.

And I’ll take pictures of, you know, my cereal in the morning. And be like, I was-

That’s what your 38% APR credit card is for.

Exactly. I’m still paying for that Nikon.

I don’t know what APR means.

And I’m not going to find out. That’s not any of my business. That’s not any of my business.

That’s Capital One’s business.

Yeah.

So, and he read, so we just chatted and we became friends. And he was this dad of a baby living in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And he was writing these 5,000 word recaps of The Bachelor that were so funny.

But I didn’t understand why a straight white man was so funny about The Bachelor. That didn’t even seem logical to me. I’m like, no, thems, theys, and the gays, the girls, the gays, the theys, they are the ones that can write about this.

But he was great. And so he said, would you like to recap a season of The Bachelor with me on a podcast? And I was like, okay, where do I get a mic?

And unfortunately, it is really easy to get a mic as we know, it is unfortunate how easy it is. Yes, tragically, tragically easy, yeah. And so we recapped, for those who are in the know, Dez’s season of The Bachelorette.

And we had the best time and he just put it somewhere, like even to this day, I’m like, I don’t know where it was. I couldn’t point people to it, but people listened. And again, I have a day job.

And so he was like, let’s start podcasts. And I’m like, oh, no, I have a job. Like I have a job.

And he was like, you know, no, you can do the job and this. And I was like, okay. And so at 38, I launched this podcast and I kept working, no kidding, 60 days.

And then I was like, no, I can’t do both. I’m just too much work. I’m not one of those girl bosses who’s like, margins, work late at night, 80 hours.

I’m like, 37 hours a week is a tough week for me. So, and I don’t have kids or a partner. And I’m like, I’m tired.

I gotta lay down. There are live journal articles to read. This was not there.

But yeah, I’m 38.

I gotta be on Tumblr three, four hours a day.

Oh my gosh, there may be Easter eggs from Taylor. I can’t, I can’t, I can’t miss those. And so he, so I quit my job and I was like, I think we’re talented.

Now, to be clear, the first week, we, we were so excited. We have an email that I sent to him and I’m like, we have 220 downloads. And he’s like, I can’t believe it.

And we were so excited. And still, I’m still excited.

Because you’re like, I don’t know 220 people. You’ve never met?

Not in my whole life.

And I was also, I had, I mean, the Internet is littered with live journals, blog spots, WordPresses. I mean, if I, if I lost a login, I would just say, it’s time to make a new blog. Put in that hit counter baby and be like seven.

It’s me checking it seven times a day. Just look at my own work and be like, okay.

It’s like, well.

Oh, that was funny. Oh.

Oh my gosh. She’s held, it’s, cause listen, I know that you and I both are people who watch back our own Instagram stories. It’s one of my favorite shows.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I’m like, oh my God. I don’t understand why more people don’t see this. This is great.

We started the podcast with Doxa Jamie and we just celebrated 12 years.

And I’m going to turn 50 in a few months. And so it’s funny to see. And with that has come, you know, other launches and other work and doing live shows and kind of making it our job.

And listen, it was not to be clear, it was not we made money immediately. We did not make any money. And so I worked all kinds of side gigs.

I wrote on a preschool blog as a side gig. I did photos for realtors with that Nikon that Pioneer Woman convinced me to get. Yeah, because I knew where the good light was.

And so I did all these side gigs for, I mean, listen, the weirdest thing I did was make cake pops out of my home kitchen.

And like that was that honestly we have to everybody needs to understand that was the era.

Oh, yes.

That was, that was above board.

We thought, yes. Are you good at anything? Monetize it.

Do it in your kitchen.

Do it in your kitchen.

And do you need the health department to come here? No, it’ll be fine.

And don’t be a rat. Okay, if someone else is making kitchen cake pops, like, let it go, all right? Like, what’s the worst that could happen?

Like a little light salmonella, okay.

I have an LLC now.

The risk is everywhere.

Yeah, my limited liability, it’s fine. I’m sure that that was, but in one year, I made a podcast and made 25,000 cake pops and sold them to various people. And so, but then once it started making money, but I still love nonprofits.

I still love being a part of agencies, but now I would say I’m a better social worker now because I’m the person who can donate money to your nonprofit.

Like, yeah, yeah.

But, and that was my biggest worry in pivoting was the money, right? Because when you, I will say, I was single, there was no second income in the home. It is harder to be like, should I pursue my creative dream?

And there’s no one else to pay the rent or the power bill. And it’s, it can be challenging in ways that it’s not challenging if you have access to anyone who will buy the groceries. And I, other than Citibank, I did not have access to anyone.

Although did I pull from that 401k? I did, because I was like, you girl, she’s gotta pay the bills.

But I do look back on that and go, what a great pivot that I was really scared of, because I thought, I’m not gonna have enough money for retirement, how am I gonna pay all my bills?

And now it’s like, oh no, that was the right, that was the right pivot, like all across the board.

And I wanna, so I wanna, I love that you dressed the money part because that is so scary.

I made my biggest pivot when like the stakes were the highest, but also I’d gone through something so pivotal that I was like, well, what’s the worst that can happen? Like I won’t die.

Right.

You know, my mom’s right here. I can live with her. My dad died.

He was the worst roommate. So that’s a lot less friction now. You know, like, so why not?

And also I just simply like could not go and do my job anymore. Like I even like attempted to like do a similar job. It’s like, I just can’t do it.

I just can’t do it. But at what point when you start podcasting, like how and you decide like I can’t do both, right? I can’t be a social worker and I can’t do this.

Like it’s simply too much work. Is there like a moment that just allows you that unlocks like, because if you’ve been doing something, by the way, for 16 years, it does become a part of your identity. Yes.

It is, and especially if you care about people, which you do care so deeply and that comes across, I would also like to point out in all of the work that the Pop Cast allows you to do, which is a cool thing that people should also see that you can

take all these parts of your life and use it to create something. But back to my original question, this is what it is like inside my brain. Was there a moment where it unlocked that sort of sense of like, well, I might as well?

I think for me, it was, I had reached, my work was very seasonal because of doing camps and events. And I’d reached the end of the season where I would be planning for the next year.

And I was like, do I want the full next year to be really stressful? And as I was going into my, I was in my late thirties, I was like, if you’re going to take a risk, it’s better to, and this was genuinely how I thought about it.

I was like, it’s better to do it now when you can pivot at 40 back to working at a nonprofit or working at an agency and you can get back into your pension. So I really did think, okay, now’s the time if you’re going to risk it.

I had enough money and savings that it was, fun fact, I was hit by a drunk driver who was naked.

That’s such a fun fact.

Listen, it’s a fact. I was hit by a drunk driver who was naked.

No one was hurt, both cars were hurt, but he had been run out of the house he was in because he was having an affair with the wife in the home and the husband came home and he jumped in a truck naked and then just hit my car and he got out and he was

like, sorry lady and he just ran back down the road. He went down. And by the way, the police can’t find criminals, but let me tell you you can, state farm insurance.

So with no information other than I could describe in detail the shape of his diglet, I was like, I don’t have any other information. They found him and I got a little uninsured motorist payout, so that had a little money in savings.

So that’s my biggest recommendation to the listener, the 31 year old. If you could get in a wreck that is a no fault of yours and you have good car insurance, it could benefit you.

And so I had enough savings that I was like, I can go six months and not be in real trouble. And that’s how I was like, I’m going to give myself six months.

And Knox and I did that, at the end of that six months, we said, okay, we’re going to hardcore, push hard for the next year. We’ll do side gigs. We both left our full time day jobs.

We did side gigs for lots of different people. And we said, for the next year, we’ll fight so hard to make money. And within nine months, we had set these seven goals at the beginning of that year.

And of those seven goals by August, we had reached all of them because we really were like, okay, we’re willing to work. Let’s grow our newsletter. Let’s make some money.

Let’s launch a membership. And so we pushed really hard to go, okay, now we weren’t making a lot of money, but I was making almost as much money. And I just was like, well, this is pre-tax, but that’s a future Jamie problem.

She’ll figure out how to pay these taxes later. But I could live on it. And I had to reduce, reuse Rihanna, right?

I had to really reduce my expenses to the, because the idea that I would have to, and my parents would happily take me in, but I just, when your father fought in Vietnam, he has really clear expectations of how success should look, especially when

you’re the first in your family to go to college. He’s like, we’re not gonna just become a blogger. Like, you have to have health insurance. And so, I had enough money that I could hold on.

And then we just, and because I had a business partner who really was fighting for that too, because now he had two kids. He was like, oh, I also need revenue intensely. So, that helped serve me very well, too.

Yeah, that makes sense.

People are always like, I think your dad would be so proud of you. And I was like, my dad would be like, you put what on the internet?

Right.

Why’d you do that? Why’d you?

What? Like, just all your business?

Why’d you say that out loud? Yeah, now everyone knows. Okay.

Now they’re gonna ask you about it.

Like, how they’re-

Hope you’re happy. Okay, hope you’re happy. All right.

It would be perplexing to him. I will also say that if your dad fought in Vietnam, he likely has, he likes his house a certain way. Okay?

And…

He likes the dust. And there are metals that. Now, when I ask, what are these four?

He’s like, I don’t know.

Like, I don’t know.

None of your bees wax.

Don’t worry about it. We’re not gonna talk about it. We’re not gonna talk about it.

We’re not gonna talk about it. Go help your mother. Okay.

Well, I love this. I also think, you know, people are afraid to fail. And I had, you know, in the back of my mind, I just thought like, I really actually didn’t consider what would happen if I’m being completely honest with you.

I was like, well, I mean, you know, I’ll just do it. Like, I’ll just, I’ll just, I’ll just say that I do copywriting now, and I’ll do that freelance.

And what I ended up doing when I left my advertising job after my husband died, I meant to say this in the introduction, but guys, this is how the podcast works. Yeah, I’m going to forget to say things. So I, I was like, I can’t go to a job anymore.

I tried, right? I tried. I got like another sort of like contract job.

I could not get to, I could not go to work. And I would just sit there and I was like, all these people, they didn’t see what I saw. Like I would look at like, you know, now I know that’s PTSD.

I would like be in a meeting with a man around my husband’s age and just watch him like die in front of me and be like, oh, now we’re talking about cheese. What about it? Scream social media strategy.

It makes for a horrible Thursday at work.

It was not good.

It was not good. I was not reliable. I was like, did I do that?

No. Will I? We’ll see.

So I was like, I can work. I know I can work in the middle of the night. That’s when I’m off.

That’s when my brain is working. And I had a mentor, shout out to Nancy Lyons, who was an entrepreneur, had at the time owned a really big digital agency in Minneapolis. And she was like, you are a copywriter.

I’ll put out some feelers for you. Who needs just some copywriting done whenever? And I made up a number.

And the number was my mortgage payment, which was $1,500. I was like, I need to make $1,500 a month. And that was my contract, my monthly contract with the first people who hired me.

I said $1,500. And I probably did like $8,000 worth of work a month, but I didn’t care because my mortgage was paid. Was that pre-tax?

Yes, but again.

Yeah. Oh, again, not my business.

That’s next year’s business. Not my business, not my business. And like one thing led to the other thing, led to the other thing, led to the other thing.

I actually didn’t have like a very specific vision in mind. So I love hearing that you guys had like seven goals. It has always been hard for me to set goals.

What is the difference between a goal and an objective after 15 years working in advertising? I still couldn’t tell you. What is it?

Okay.

I believe they tried to teach you that in sixth grade.

And I was doing that with my son last year. And I was like, oh, goal or objective.

No, I can’t. They’re, they’re, they’re hard. Miriam Webster is on Twitter.

Go ask them.

Like, ask, ask someone, ask your teacher, okay? Don’t ask your dumb mom. But the question that people ask is like, well, what if it doesn’t work?

So if it hadn’t worked for me, I think that I could have, I mean, I did move in with my mom. That’s something that I just ended up doing anyways. Just, I needed to.

But like, if, if, if it hadn’t worked out, right? If I hadn’t actually made a podcast, if I hadn’t published a book, like, I do think after a couple months, after I discovered therapy, I could have, I could have gone back to an ad agency.

I could have figured it out. I could have gone back. Like, or something else would have appeared.

And I truly, that might just be hindsight, you know, and my, and my perfect vision. Now I wear glasses. But I do think like, okay, well, if it’s not that thing, it will be another thing.

And I have like, I had a post-it that now my friend put on to a poster. I’ll put a picture of it in this episode. Um, it says like, I trust you to figure it out like you always have.

And it’s above my desk because like, I need to remember that sometimes, like, you’ll figure it out. You always have and you can trust yourself.

Yes.

And I will say, when you make a pivot like that, even with the risk that it entails, I think what’s great now is now I can, if something is, if we’re struggling in our business or it’s like, we’re in trouble, like, you know, in the last couple of

years, ad revenue really dried up in the podcasting space. And indie podcasts really took the hit more than anyone else because obviously all the money had to go to Jason Bateman because he was obviously impoverished.

I’m so, every time, I’m so, I lay awake, I worry about Jason Bateman and his financial empire. I worry about the guys from Pod Save America.

I worry that, you know, they might be not getting enough money to sarcastically deliver ads that I have to re-record to be sincere and say, no, I would literally, I would die if I didn’t use this mattress, but they can just ground and say whatever

And I worry about them.

Nordstrom lets them say Nordstroms and doesn’t make them re-record it every time, which is different.

So, but we really struggled, but it was, the fear was not the same fear as if we have, because I was like, well, if we have to pivot, I’ve done that before. And I’ve done it with much more risk, much less savings, much less stability.

And so the beauty of it is it’s like, once you, well, you know, once you jump off the cliff, that might not be a good example. Once you, once you step off, yeah, then you’re, it’s easy to jump off other cliffs.

Like, is that good, is that good advice?

Once you learn how to, is it paraglide or hang gliding? Once you do it once, I imagine it’s easier to do it again. I do think like it’s like building trust in yourself too.

Like at one point, pretty much everything was a risk. And I was talking to a friend on the phone the other day, and Jamie, now that I have your number, you’re gonna probably start getting phone calls because I love talking on the phone.

Oh my gosh, I’m so excited, let’s go.

Ask Kendra, I love to chat on the phone. And I won’t schedule it. I will simply call you in the middle of your day and you’ll say, is someone dying?

And I’ll say, we’ll find out.

I’m gonna put you in my favorites so it gets through.

Thank you. My friend said, you have to remember, if you don’t make decisions, life will make them for you. And if that keeps happening, you will get to the end of your life and be like, what, this isn’t what I wanted?

So sometimes you just gotta make the decision.

Yeah, and I don’t regret, because I think one of the things about identity is really important too, because especially as someone who, when I meet people, they’ll be like, oh, you’re married? No. Do you have kids?

No. But I always could lean on my job. Like it was like, no, I’m a social worker, you know, I’m a camp director.

Like these were so, it was wonderful to be able to say. Plus then they’d be like, ah, I’ll pay for lunch. And I’m like, good.

Like, excellent. And which is great. You needed to.

I make less money than you. I’m confident.

But so when it was that middle kind of liminal space of what is next and who am I, and then telling people you’re a podcaster in 2013, where now I tell people that they’re a podcaster and they’re like, oh my God, I love Joe Rogan.

And you’re like, that’s, we do the same thing, that we are in the same field. I’m him. You’ve just put Botox in Joe Rogan, so thank you so much.

He’s actually my colleague, technically.

We see each other at conferences.

But it was like, now it’s not the weird thing, even though there still are, I have this sweet neighbor who is like, I tell everybody you’re a podcaster and I met somebody who knew you from way back and they said you are a lot of trouble and they

can’t believe that you have a full time job. I said, listen, that job pay for this house in your fancy neighborhood, you need to calm down. You need to stop yelling at me. You know what I’m saying?

So I think once you, when you don’t have an identity connected to a job while you’re in the pivot, it can feel weird. Or if your identity is in your profession and you do, quote, fail, which failure is relative.

It’s like, well, I took a risk and it didn’t work out. That’s not the end of the world. That’s not necessarily a failure.

It’s just that I tried something, it didn’t work out. And I know that might be Pollyanna of being like, it’s not a failure, let’s reframe it. But that’s what my therapist told me to do.

So I only listen to her. So she says, look, there’s just some risk and some choices you make that don’t work out. They’re really unmet expectations.

They don’t have to be full on failures. Trust me, I’ve had plenty of failures. Even in this work, we’ve had huge failures, but it doesn’t have to define you.

In the same way that not any of those titles don’t have to define the whole of you, whether that’s mother or wife or orthopedic surgeon, which, I mean, obviously, you’re hot, so the orthopedic surgeons are always hot. Hot is what defines you.

So you should just lean on that.

Yeah, that’s what I tell my kids every day. It’s what’s on the outside that matters. So don’t worry about anything else.

Don’t worry about your be hot.

But the rest will follow, okay?

That’s what they say.

God, if you can, it’s a great gig. It’s a great gig.

If you can, that is, you should lean on that, and you should enjoy that privilege, because not everyone has it. Not everyone, not everyone has it. And that’s the great tragedy.

I’ve wanted it, and I do not, it’s not for me.

So I have to be more entertaining.

Some of us were six feet tall in ninth grade and had to learn very quickly that, you know, I’m, I’m, all of my relationships, except for the few people I married, basically came from me being persistently there. I’ll be there, okay?

And eventually you’ll say, why not her?

Yeah, because she’s pretty funny. Yeah, she’s a good hang. As someone who wasn’t six feet, but was 5’1 and 200 pounds in the seventh grade, like I understand when people ask, exactly, nice to meet you.

That is, if people ask like, well, how do you get a job like this? Okay, well, you have to go back to a trauma in your identity in middle school, and that’ll do it.

And you just trace that line right to success, baby. Right to success. That’s right.

Jamie, we are going to, we’re going to take some messages from people who have started over, and we are going to leave every listener feeling like they could Kool-Aid man or woman or person through the wall.

Love it.

Into their next life. And the first thing that we have is a voicemail, and if it doesn’t play, you will see who I really am.

Okay, I look forward to it.

Okay.

All right. Hey Nora, this is Alex. I bought the freaky little statue from you.

Um, that’s like the little…

Okay, sometimes I sell weird, thrifted things on Instagram.

No, I wanted that statue, and Alex got it. I’m real mad about that.

Okay, Alex got the statue. I found it on the bottom of the Goodwill shelf, like tucked in tight, like, and I said, this guy is so weird, so weird. Grace, if you can, you will find that picture, you will put it on the screen for this episode.

I said, this is so, and I looked it up, and it’s technically, it was, might be a fertility statue. You never know, you never know.

So, now Alex has got it.

Yeah, good luck, good luck.

Fertility thing, it sent you the reaction of my wife, actually calling in to talk about the, you know, not too late, you know, not too old pivot. I am a social worker, I’m 32, and I just pivoted my career.

I spent a decade working with people experiencing homelessness and doing street outreach and street medicine for a long time. And I just started a new job on Monday, and now I’m doing policy advocacy work for people in recovery.

I’m in long-term recovery myself from substance use. And yeah, I didn’t think that I would be able to do it. I thought I was pigeonholed into outreach forever.

I was considered a local expert and published in research and giving trainings and all this type of stuff. And I thought I was like, this is it, this is all I’m good for, and this is all that I will ever know.

But I was miserable, like so completely miserable. And I just thought that it was too late for me. I thought I was old and decrepit and all that.

But I am really glad that I gave myself the permission to do something different. I went to school. I have a master’s in social work.

And I did the macro focus, which is, you know, I have a program development and policy administration.

And, you know, while my last couple of jobs have been like bigger picture focused for social work, and not so client-centered anymore, I kind of felt like, you know, maybe I couldn’t do anything differently.

So now my new job will be doing like actual policy legislation and trying to change things from the top down. And I’m really excited about that.

And now I get to like actually use my lived experience in a meaningful way, where, you know, I wasn’t really able to do that in my previous life. So yeah, I just wanted to call and share that.

I love that.

Oh my gosh, that’s fantastic. Listen, there’s so much to say about when you were really good at your job, like Alex, talking about, you’re talking about being a local expert, and people really probably coming to you all the time.

My guess is you had more than 10 years experience in this field. And that can be difficult for people to untangle of like, you’re really good at your job.

Because like when you’re bad, like if I had been a really bad recruiter of families to adopt, if I’d been like, hey, I got one, then forced to adopt, if I’d been like, hey, I got one in four years, it would be like, I should do something else.

Like it would be easier to leave it. But the problem is you do have, you’ll get a lot of pushback when you pivot because people have come to depend on you. People have come to love you.

People have seen the impact of your work, whether it’s in social work or anything. Like they just go, you’re great at running this Chili’s. Like look how great our Chili’s is.

Like it would be hard to lose you. And especially if you happen to love your coworkers, it can be such a difficult thing. But what a gift to have your own life and your work be a beautiful Venn diagram.

I mean, that’s pretty fantastic.

And to bring all that with you and say like, oh, I can pull from what I learned on like the micro level and make macro impacts is so cool.

And it’s just like, yeah, it’s like widening your vision and widening other people’s vision of you too, because sometimes I think if you are good at something and if people like what you do, it can feel like you couldn’t possibly do another thing.

Ask me how I know that feeling.

Okay, I have a question for you, Nora. Why are the 31 and the 32 year olds feeling ancient? What have we done to them?

Why have we ruined their life? Is it because their elder Gen Z? Is it because-

Yeah, because that’s a young millennial.

No, young millennial.

Young millennial, is it because the elder millennials talk about Harry Menopause too much? And weighted that. Is that what it is?

They’re just like, well, I’m part of their group and we’re all decrepit now.

I think something about 30 also just feels like monumental. Like I had similar feelings at 25. 25 and 30 felt bigger and older than they were.

I made my pivot, I was 32, and my dad died when he was 64, so I simultaneously felt like a baby, because my dad had died, but also like I’m middle-aged. At 32, I was like, I am middle-aged.

I might be at the exact half of my life right now, so I gotta go. And like, you know, might as well. But I do think, I don’t know, it’s also, aren’t people like, people are getting married later, people are having kids later.

But we were also raised with media and even like family structures, like I grew up in the Midwest. I knew one person with divorced parents when I was growing up. My parents were married and parents by the time they were 25.

So, which was considered like kinda old, you know? Yeah. Like, I mean, you’re from the, were you going to weddings when you were 22?

I was, I think I’ve been in my sixth wedding.

By the, as a bridesmaid, by the time I was 22, yeah. And he and my parents all, yes, had kids in their early 20s, even more so. It’s like, they lived in the rural south too, cause there’s nothing else to do.

And all those cows are mating. So why shouldn’t you? And so, but I, you know, me, my big moment was at 35.

I like just cried in a parking lot. Cause I was like, because I didn’t know that I, I had not given myself full permission to not have kids. Cause I didn’t want to have kids, but everybody had kids.

And so it was like, no, I have, and I liked kids, but I was like, I don’t think I’m going to be great. I don’t want to do this. I’m not interested in this.

And it wasn’t like I was surrounded by people trying to put a baby in me, but I did think like, well, but then it was like, well, it’s over now, which it’s not.

No, it’s not.

Listen, Halle Berry, I think she was 52 when she had that baby. Listen, for some of you might be, yeah, Hoda, Millie Bobby Brown though, also just adopted a baby. You didn’t have a baby at any age.

Wow, I’m out of the loop.

Okay.

That’s what I’m here for, to tell you when a star of Stranger Things is a mother. But for me at 35, and I cried in that part of my life because I just thought, well, my life is defined for me.

It was weird that three years later, I would be like, no, it’s not. It doesn’t have to be. I love that for Alex too, that you didn’t have to be defined by work that you had been doing, but you still get to be in that space, which is nice too.

It’s great that you still use all of your investment in your college, unlike some of us.

I did a different Q&A a couple of days ago on Instagram, and someone else too was like, I really love what I do. I always get variations on this question, like, can I switch? What am I supposed to do if I don’t want to do this thing anymore?

One person was like, I don’t know how I could possibly switch because I would hurt my boss’s feelings, and I’m like, you won’t.

No, you won’t.

It’s okay. If you do, that’s also okay. You’ll survive.

You’ll survive.

What do you say in a whole job because you don’t know what someone’s feeling? Yeah, I saw your answer to that.

It was so good because if you really love that boss and that boss really cares about you, yeah, maybe they’ll be bummed that they’re losing such a great employee, but they’ll also be like, you’re going to do great.

I’ve seen bosses from that last job at fundraisers, and I’m still involved in non-profits that they’re connected to, and they’re never like, you asshole.

They’re all in the corner, just.

Yeah.

I can’t believe Jamie had the nerve to show up here and donate to this cause.

No. Otherwise, they’re like, hey, I liked your take on Taylor and Travis, and I was like, oh my God, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Okay.

I’m going to read one of our emails.

Okay. After a long and burn outy career in public relations and advertising, I got laid off at age 60. This was a blessing because my client was UnitedHealthcare.

Oh.

Okay.

Okay. I was crispy inside from this life, so I said, F it. I’m going to burn it all down and pivot to a new gig.

I started a professional home organizing career. Long-term dream, and I’ve been at it for one and a half years now. I actually built a website.

I taught myself accounting. It can be done. I do all of my marketing.

I love that part. And I get to help people feel so much better about their homes and get rid of so much clutter. When I think of my old life, I laugh and praise the heavens that I never have to hear all of that corporate BS anymore.

What a beautiful ride. Xoxo.

Ah, that is magical. Like, congratulations. What a gift.

And what a great, because I think a lot of people at 60 would be like, well, I’m supposed to retire and get on a Viking boat cruise. In Amsterdam, like, is that what I’m supposed to do? I mean, she’s like, you can’t do that.

Collect your Viking boat cruise.

That’s right.

But to take something that, and I know, look, I’m always hesitant to be like, is there something, is a hobby you love? You should monetize it. I don’t think that at all.

But if you have a skill set that is beyond your professional setting and that you’re great at it, the internet is magical. I mean, it’s a garbage place, but it’s also super magical in teaching you how to do everything you need to know.

I mean, like, I did not know how to edit audio. I did not know how to make a graphic. I did not know how to write copy that would be as intriguing for a different.

I’m used to donors. I’m not used to people who are just obsessed with, you know, Glenn Powell. Like I did, so I had to learn how to do all of that and get better at it.

But that’s what the internet got. There’s a masterclass for everything. And you can learn how to do.

There’s a YouTube for everything.

There’s a YouTube for everything.

Now there’s a three-minute TikTok that will explain to you investment accounts. And that was helpful for me because I needed to know how to do. Because it’s not just the pivot in the job.

Sometimes it’s, well, now I’m starting my own business and now I have to know how to manage my own health care. And, you know, because it’s not, I’m assuming it was provided by United Health Care at your ad PR job. Maybe so.

And so you have to learn how to do all of that. But the internet makes it, the pivots are easier.

I always say, my parents didn’t make pivots, not just because the tradition was you stay in a job 40 years and then you take your pension and you live happily ever after. It’s because how do you know how to do it?

I got to go back to college to learn how to do something else. And now you don’t even have to go to college in the first place. Like you can learn how to do a million things without even having to go to Harvard.

Yeah, you might never need to actually take a marketing class.

You can learn it. And also you can learn by watching people. And I also love, I think I love the idea of starting over and like fresh starts too because like just learning something new, like creating new neural pathways is so satisfying.

And one, also there’s certain things that no matter what, I can’t learn. And one of them is home organization, okay? One of them is de-cluttering.

I am the clutter. And so I mean, I just appreciate this woman’s business for doing something that cannot be done by AI and something that like people really do physically need, like people need this. So-

No, my home organizer is on my Christmas card list.

Like she’s made my closets functional. Like I’m-

I hate that.

It’s so, it’s such a gift. Yeah.

My, one of just like my cycles, like my ADHD cycles, my just life cycles, my life cycles are cutting bangs, growing bangs, cutting bangs, growing bangs.

But a cycle that I go through periodically, and I’m looking at some of it right now, is I will clear out entire closets, and I’ll say, this is, I know exactly what I’m going to do.

Once everything’s out of the closet, I’ve lost interest, I’ve lost steam, I’ve lost focus, and I don’t have a vision anymore, and that’s what’s happening on the other side of this camera, is I have cleaned out a closet. Full stop.

And that’s where it will remain. Look, I have ADHD, and which one of the parts of my life, was this pivot actually aided that significantly, because as weird as it is to be like, you’re gonna start a business with ADHD.

It’s like, yeah, but now it’s, my whole life is conducive to my ADHD. No one is expecting me to get back from a lunch in 30 minutes anymore. Your girl is free.

She’s free. And so I was thriving in that, but like the rest of my life is still very, I mean, cause I can hyper, I can clean a closet, but I can’t guarantee that my deep focus moments will be on that closet.

It will be on, should I learn how to embroider? I should buy, I should go to Michael’s right now. And that’s where my hair is urgent.

You don’t get to choose your focus sometimes.

You don’t get to choose it, and that’s the roughest part, cause I also have attempted to learn embroidery. So that’s also what I’m looking at is a lot of hobby, a lot of dead hobbies, right?

Dead hobbies, oh, so many dead hobbies.

Right over here, right over here. So thank you to that listener for writing in, and that was inspiring. Starting over at 60 and saying I’m going to start my own business is so cool.

It’s so chic to be like, now I actually do home organizing.

And I actually think all of those skills translate so well, because if you have ever worked in advertising or marketing, and if you have ever had the displeasure of working with UHC, who was also a client of mine, and I think I can say that, I think

I can say, yeah, one of the worst companies to do advertising and marketing for truly just got horrible. You can do anything. You can do anything.

Listen, you say it was hard. I bet it’s harder now.

I bet it’s harder now. That’s not fun.

That’s tough.

I bet it’s not fun. That’s not fun. This is 2010.

It wasn’t fun. I bet maybe things have changed. Okay.

I put a different e-mail in the chat for you.

Yes. Okay. Wait, let me do it again.

Grandma Doris died last night at 101 years old. It was expected, but not. She was sharp as a tack and doing well until her last peaceful moments at home.

The last thing she said was repeating her buddy Alexis, the joke of the day. She was the embodiment of it’s never too late. Somehow, even though she grew up on a farm, she never learned to swim.

When she turned 40, she signed herself up for lessons and ended up loving it so much that she swam laps every day until she was 100. In her 60s, she decided to learn to speak Spanish.

Mexico was one of her favorite places and she wanted to be able to talk to neighbors and friends in California in their native language. Only she ended up being terrible at learning a new language. She just couldn’t get it to stick in her brain.

Instead of giving up, she took the same entry level community ed course every year for 20 years. The exact same beginners class over and over again. She never got good at it and she did not care.

I know neither of these things are the most groundbreaking, life changing life pivots, but they were still risk and I love her for taking them.

This year, I turned 40 and she was the first one I wanted to tell that I got accepted into a PhD program and I’m going back to school my own little pivot. I’m so sad she’s gone and she’d be so pissed at me for crying.

Thanks for letting me share a little bit about her. Part of my brain keeps thinking that if I don’t tell anyone she died, she’ll still be alive because in their mind she will be.

But she think that was bullshit because she didn’t want to live forever, even though she basically did anyway, she was alive for 40% of America’s existence. Anyway, it’s never too late for big changes or little ones love Kaylee.

Oh, RIP Doris. I love Grandma Doris.

Grandma Doris is maybe the best person I’ve never met. Like that’s incredible. And what a testament to, first of all, Kaylee, going into a PhD program is not your own little pivot, but it’s a big pivot.

Like that’s an amazing thing. That’s a big one. That’s a big one, baby.

But Doris teaching us about taking risks that don’t have to be just your career, but it can feel like, oh, I’m going to, I’m going to, listen, I learned Majang this year as many white women in Alabama.

I’m trying so hard to learn.

It’s hard to learn. But it’s been the most fun because I play with people who are wildly competitive, super trash talkers, also make great appetizers. So it’s a fun little potluck of just talking shit over cracks and bams.

But I would have been like, well, no, all my hobbies are, all my hobbies are, they exist. They define me. People know that I’m a reader.

People know that I’m a shopper. Why can’t I can’t become a new thing? And it’s like, yeah, you can become a new thing all the time.

And even in the small ways, you can become a swimmer.

You become a swimmer. I can’t, my hair can’t take the damage of a chlorine, but.

I’m not getting chlorine on this.

I can’t do that. It’s like, listen, I think you might be able to hear still.

Is that sun in? What do I hear?

That’s my, the crunch of bleached hair, trying to heal itself. I wonder if Michael pick it up. Can you hear it?

Help me.

Help me.

When my son falls asleep, he does that to soothe himself.

He touches your dead hair, your dead hair.

He touches my damaged hair and is like, I’m like just like, okay, okay.

It’s like, okay, we’re glad this is seizing for somebody.

Yeah. An Olaplexit tonight, please stop. Please stop.

You can learn something new. I’m taking Italian right now. I have attempted to learn many times, but I will be, I will be Grandma Doris and I will, without shame, I will take the same class.

I’m inspired honestly by the idea of just taking the same community and class 20 times. Yeah, I think that’s amazing.

I signed up for a granny square class, which is just crocheting granny squares.

That’s the only thing I can crochet.

My mother’s a quilter and she is, my whole life, she’s crocheted, knitted, quilted, sewn like a seamstress.

I love that kind of woman.

I know and they’re so great. She does not, she’s not interested even a little in teaching me. I’m like, wait, isn’t this supposed to be passed down?

She goes, no, you’re not, you’re not having enough attention span. She knows me too well, unfortunately.

And so I was like, well, I’m going to sign up for a little grainy square class and maybe I can learn to kind of carry on because now you get to the edge where you’re like, she will die soon and I need to be able to know how to do this.

I need to be able to know.

Even if she doesn’t want to pass it down to me, I’ll force someone else to pass it over to me and I will carry it whether or not my mother wanted me to have this skill or not, I have it. So future, rest in peace.

You can rest in peace in the future because I already got it. I already got what I wanted.

Yeah, Jan, I covered it.

Okay, Jan.

I didn’t need you.

Don’t worry. Don’t sweat it. Are there things that you still want to learn that are not, because I love this shift from a career pivot to just expanding your life, learning things.

I still haven’t learned how to drive a stick shift and I really want to. They’re rarer to find. But I really want to learn.

Listen, that feels like there’s some connection to…

It feels sexual that you’re wanting to learn it. I don’t know why I think that. Probably, yeah.

No, I never think about… I am one of those people that’s like, that’s not for me. And that’s 90% of things.

I’m like, oh my God, you’re so good at that. My father, I had people… I had to have my roof replaced because the water was coming through the ceiling and that is a sign.

So, let me be your Bob Vila. Not supposed to. That’s right.

But my dad, I was like, it’s so weird having to deal with people and I’m not great at dealing with any sort… Because I’m just like, you’re great. You do it.

I’ll pay you whatever. I’m not a good negotiator, whatever. And my dad was like, well, you know what it’s like when I did all this stuff?

Because my dad did… He put on our roof. He did our electrical in our house.

My dad wasn’t qualified in any of those things, but he had a large book of house how-to. And he was like, I can learn how to do this.

So my thing this year has been, I’m gonna learn how to patch walls where I hang something up illogically, and I’m gonna learn to patch my own walls and paint and fix small things. I’m trying to learn all the handyman tasks.

I’ve been practicing knowing what wrench and the difference in a wrench and a screwdriver and pliers.

I imagine you laying them out, like it’s a flash card and being like.

Exactly.

And I get them wrong. I don’t always get 100% on those tasks. Cause somebody, like we were hanging some stuff and a friend was like, here, can you give me a Allen wrench?

And I went, I could.

I never asked his name.

Why does one have a name and the others don’t get names?

Which one of you is Allen?

Allen, are you available right now? Thank you.

Anyone? Anyone, which one? Who are we looking for?

What are we looking for?

So is Italian yours? Is Italian the same?

Italian, mahjong, driving a stick shift. There’s some that I gave up on. I gave up on quilting.

Sorry to my mother-in-law who can also quilt beautifully. I was like, I can’t use a sewing machine. I truly can’t.

My grandma sewed beautifully. It’s moving too fast. It’s like, yeah, I just, it’s not for me.

I can cross-stitch. I can needle point. I can do some kinds of embroidery.

It might be ugly. Those are good. I gave up on knitting even though now, every time I look at my cousin’s wife’s sister, Debbie, you’re out there, beautiful knitter.

I see her knitting gorgeous cashmere sweaters. And I say, I want to know how to do that. I, there are certain things.

I’m not too old. It’s not too late, but I do have to make decisions about what I’m going to learn how to do. And I just don’t think I’m ever going to learn how to knit a cashmere sweater, but I can buy one.

Well, listen, my TikToks take up a lot of my time.

Yeah.

You know, as long as, and by the way, this is not an ad.

I did buy a brick because of Nora McInerny. I did use her code. That brick has changed my life.

I know.

So put the code in the link in the show.

Because that brick has changed my life.

Code is Nora, I think.

Okay, perfect. And so the brick will let me, when it’s time to turn the brick off, I’m like, now it’s time for TikToks. I’m never thinking, should I learn to make a cardigan?

I’m like, no, I wanna see what the use are up to. Like, what neighbor chaos is happening in some neighborhood in Ohio? I need to know.

I can’t get caught up.

I gotta get in there. Who believes that their psychiatrist isn’t in love with them and is dedicating?

17 part series to it.

25.5 at this point.

Plus, Ashby has a live coming up, and she might be the Lorax again, so I have to be here for that.

We gotta be here. We gotta be here. So, yeah, I will say that using the brick does make my…

It makes my scroll time more of a treat, you know? I’m like, okay, here I am. Like, oh, I got this.

And it just feels like, ooh, like, ooh. And it also makes me… When I have it bricked and I have to get up, it’s the friction of it.

When I have to get up and go find the brick and untap it, I think, shame. You know, I’m like, by the time I get to it, I’m like, I can’t do it. Come on, come on.

No, I have to go back.

Was I finished? I was not prepared for, like, that getting up would be enough of a resistance that I wouldn’t get up.

Because you have to look at it while you’re tapping it, and it says, I mean, you’ve been Brick for 36 hours. You really want to stop now? You want to stop now?

And you’re like, no, you’re right.

You make a great point, Brick.

Come on, come on. You’re right.

I’m good.

I’m good. I’m good. All right.

Speaking of pivots, we’re going to make so many just in these topics today. So I hope people are excited about that. It is truly never too late, said by someone who truly thought it was too late.

Dear reader, I was 38. 2019. I just hit a huge career milestone.

I got tenure at a large university, became an associate professor after more than a decade of work in education and then my husband died. My sister. My sister in sorrow, not my biological sister.

It was messy and complicated and then COVID lockdowns hit three months later. I was adrift, I was confused, I was grieving, it was a lot. After a year of doing a sabbatical in Portland, Oregon, I knew I had to make a change.

It was scary as shit. I had been doing the same thing since I was essentially 22. I had a great job.

I was fairly good, passively good at the job. I was well-liked. I had a comfortable life and I really, really wanted to light it on fire.

I was deeply unhappy, anxious, and feeling like there was more to life because there is. I was buoyed by a friend who had taken a similar path. A great New York Times article about women who changed jobs late in life.

Where is that? I got to find that. And a real reflection about my values.

I decided to become a therapist. I quit academia. Is it academia or academia?

I think if you don’t know, you’re not in it.

Yeah, no. So academia, I’m not sure.

Academia, I’ll just, if I say it in an Italian accent, no one can be.

Then it’s what it is in Italy.

Then it’s right. Okay. I quit that path, which turned out to not be that hard.

Truly, I was not that important. What a lesson. What a life lesson.

I was not that important. We’re not that important. I just finished a master’s in social work, and I’m a therapist at my local VA, helping people who have experienced so much of life.

I love it. So many people told me I was brave. The thing is, we have this one life.

Is it brave, or is it just being able to let go of old versions of ourselves, and experience a new part of oneself? I don’t feel brave, but I do feel lucky for this second chance. I have goosebumps.

Oh my gosh.

I’m like, oh, prison. That’s so good. What a great lesson.

What a great lesson for, because when I left my job, that final social work job, they did not replace me. And I was like, oh, wait, was I not? Okay.

Oh, yeah.

Okay, that’s just.

They just split all my job between other people. And it was humbling in a way, because you’re like, oh, the show does literally go on.

And so this lesson of like, you’re not, it’s not as important as you think it is, which then takes all the pressure off all the outside expectations of like, well, those expectations, those, it should only be my expectations that matter.

Yeah.

It shouldn’t be everybody else’s.

Yeah. And like, I love the idea of like, I mean, is it really that brave? I just kind of like did something.

And I don’t know. I do think, I think that grief can be very clarifying and to go through like that personal loss of like your husband and then to just sort of like watch the world go through COVID and to just be so, so isolated.

I think that time really did have a very clarifying effect on a lot of people. Like a lot of people went through that and was like, I can’t, I can’t just keep on keeping on. And so I love this.

This is so, that’s, that is a perfect and inspiring story. So thank you for sharing that one.

It makes me feel like, should I become a therapist? I should not.

Should I quit? Yeah. Should I also quit?

Should I also quit?

For a year?

Should I also quit academia?

Should I also move on? I don’t know.

Should I get into academia? Demia, should I learn how to say the word? Get into it, quit it, and start over.

And then do another podcast about quitting academia.

And then do another podcast about that.

Someone let me know. Sound off in the comments. Okay.

I put another one in the chat for you.

Okay. I am now the wise old age of 45, but I remember being in my mid-20s and realizing I hated my life, but thinking I was stuck. My senior year of college, 9-11 had happened.

Listen, I love when we get a 9-11 reference in any podcast episode.

We have to, and I can’t believe it hasn’t come up sooner.

It’s taking too long. And I decided I wanted to go into government service. I attended grad school and quickly learned the important life lesson that grad schools will lie to you to attract top students from elite schools.

So my program, in fact, did not have many grads go on to federal service, but focused on local government. But I had a full ride, lived at home, and figured I’d see how it played out.

Fast forward seven years, and I was living in the Chicago suburbs where I owned a condo and worked as an assistant village manager, or spending most evenings and weekends at community events because I didn’t have a family and my boss thought it was important to build my career. And I was generally miserable and isolated. To my family’s horror, I quit a perfectly good job, sold my house, and moved to Roscoe Village for a self-proclaimed summer of George.

I now work in health care and have more success and money than I could have imagined in my old career. It was the best pivot ever.

There were moments of terror as I feared what people would think, and I cringed over the sunk cost of my time, effort, money, and reputation. But looking back, I only wish I had made the jump sooner. Even now, at 45, I’m in the best shape of my life.

Okay, flex, okay. Yeah, okay, okay. We get it, okay, life is great.

After three kids have focused on my health and fitness, wanting to keep myself as independent as long as possible, but have found a new passion for working out that I didn’t know I had. There’s always time to start.

And again, looking back, I only wish I had put in this energy sooner, instead of thinking I could never. I do get a lot of questions about making the big moves, and choices I’ve made in my life, which I always find a little odd.

And my therapist says that it’s because so many people are unhappy with their choices, and they’re like, who gave you permission to do that, to quit your job, to move?

And framing it has been so helpful to get around the what will people think fear, because they really aren’t judging me and my choices. They’re afraid that they could never be that brave. I like that the two, we have two people who are in conflict.

I’m like, it’s not that brave. Even though it does feel wildly brave, it does feel that way. But in the end, you look back and you go, I should have done this sooner.

They’re saying, I should have done this sooner.

Village manager? I got stuck on that for a second. I said, what’s a village manager?

Village? You’re managing a village?

It feels like, I just assumed the villages, which is where people retire to. I always think a village is a place where people retire to.

That cannot be right. Well then, okay, then it was mentioned Roscoe Village. I had to look that up, because I, do you know what Roscoe Village is?

No, and what is a proclaimed summer of George?

Okay, I think that’s a Seinfeld reference.

Oh my gosh, that’s funny.

I believe it is, I believe it is.

Wow, I love that.

Okay, Roscoe Village is an 1830 restored canal town.

I’m on their website, it says Roscoe Village has a story to tell, bullets. It’s the story of a small port built along the Ohio and Erie Canal, enriched.

It’s the story of the way lives were enriched by the wonders of canal travel in this newly developing region. It’s the story of the 1913 flood that wiped out the canal and left the village of Roscoe to suffer years of decline.

And it’s the story of caring entrepreneurs, historians, and townspeople, townspeople, villages, who worked to restore this tiny town to a new life, celebrating the past as historic Roscoe Village. Roscoe? Roscoe Village.

The story goes on today in a village alive with fascinating historic tours, beautifully appointed buildings, annual festivals and events, and breathtaking gardens and pathways. And I gotta say, this does look magical.

People, Ohio’s not doing the best job at…

Ohio, where’s that chamber of commerce?

Cultivating tourism.

What are you doing?

If I’d known about Roscoe Village, maybe I would have been in Ohio this summer instead of Europe. That’s what I’m gonna say.

That’s impressive. It’s gotta be more than the chili, although I love the chili. Like, you gotta push the canal town.

That’s pretty impressive.

I’m gonna need bullet points. And we got them, we got them. We got bullet points and that was beautiful.

And I think that’s, you know, whether or not it’s brave, I think, you know, one of those listeners said, like, you do, you really do only have this one life. I love to paraphrase Dr. Edith Eager.

She’s a psychologist, she’s a doctor. She’s a doctor of psychology. She’s a Holocaust survivor.

She was getting, she had her masters, she’s in her 40s. Her advisor, one of her colleagues had said like, oh, you should get your PhD. And she’s like, I don’t know, I’d be 50 when I finish.

And he said, well, you’ll be 50 anyway.

What a word.

You know, I think about that all the time. Like, yeah, well, you’re going to be 50 anyway. If you’re lucky, you’ll be 50 anyway.

What kind of 50 do you want to be, right? Like, where do you want to be?

And I like the acknowledgement of, you know, sunk cost of my time, effort, money, reputation. Again, going back to you, I remember my dad was like, but you, when I was like, I’m becoming a podcaster, which he didn’t know what that was.

And I had to explain what it was. And he was like, but you got that degree. And I go, yeah, I don’t, dad, I hate to break it to you.

They’re not taking it away.

They’re, yeah, I’m still going to have it, but it actually hasn’t done me all that good in the first, that liberal arts degree.

But he was like, you went to grad school, like, and I go, yeah, and I’ve used it and it’s been great. And I’ve taken advantage of that.

But, and I’ll tell you, he turned around, Chuck turned around on me when we went to a, we went to a quilt show with my mom and we’re standing around and I am videoing for Instagram stories and I’m kind of showing people, because you know, people want

to be at that quilt show with me. And I’m doing it and I see my dad lean over to a vendor and say, she’s podcasting. And I was like, exactly. And that’s what I knew.

I was like, okay, I don’t need him to understand it, but like he’s supportive. And also, like I built, I’m in the process of building them a new deck. And so he’s like, podcasting seems great.

Totally in the podcasting.

I love podcasting. Okay. Can’t tell it enough.

Have you heard of my daughter, Jamie? She’s podcasting right now.

They asked me for a box of business cards so that they could pass it out to people at Cracker Barrel.

Yes.

When they go to breakfast. And I was like, yeah, of course. I don’t know that-

How do your parents feel, speaking of pivots, how do your parents feel about the Cracker Barrel rebrand?

Oh, listen, they just don’t understand why you’d get rid of the very thing.

They’re like, you need the barrel in the picture.

I believe-

They’re very disappointed by that. They have a lot of strong feelings about the barrel going away.

Yeah.

And I go, but it’s in the name. Like, do we need the visual? And they’re like, but again, my parents are the classic, why has it got to change?

Why does it have to change? It’s little things. I don’t mind when big things change, like culture or things like that.

But like when they’re like, I just, why did they move? If you rearrange a Walmart, they never have gotten over it. They’ll tell you in 1997, the Walmart moved the grocery to the other side.

And why would they do it?

It’s like we all knew it was over here. Why would they move it over here? It doesn’t make any sense.

That’s how I feel about small things. I’m like, I want to drive a car that’s not just an iPad on wheels. Like I want a button.

I want buttons.

My car does not have door handles because I drive an electric vehicle with no door handles, but a Ford, a Ford. Let me be clear. And I’m like, this button, why can’t it just be a door handle?

I don’t understand.

Give me a door handle. Give me a door handle. Give me a door handle.

I want radio up, radio down. I want radio.

I want a volume button.

I want heat is up, heat is down. I want little clicks, little tactile clicks with it, okay?

I would love a tactile click.

And it doesn’t matter if I haven’t been to a cracker barrel in decades, I want the logo to have a barrel in it. Okay.

I want the logo to have a barrel in it. Yeah. And I want to play that golf tee game while I wait in a rocker.

That’s all I want. Yeah.

That’s all I want. And I won’t, if that game is available somewhere else, no, it’s not. That is a cracker barrel activity only.

It’s like Girl Scout cookies.

It’s only that one time and they are the best cookies. How dare you suggest otherwise?

How dare you suggest otherwise? That is what I want. If I were not celiac, I would be on my way to cracker barrel right now to get some biscuits and gravy.

But that ship has sailed for me. And that’s a pivot.

Unfortunately, your body had a different plan.

My body pivoted. My body pivoted.

Body pivots are actually, you can do a whole episode on body pivots and how they suck. Like a lot of those suck. They’re not great.

A lot of them are.

And I just want to say a word of caution because Jamie mentioned weighted vests. And I’ve sustained a weighted vest injury from going on a walk with one that was too heavy. And I took a video of the moment.

I was like, look at me. I look so, no, you look like you’re wearing like a tactical, you look like you’re wearing tactical gear.

No.

Yeah.

And any orthopedic doctor will tell you, stop it. Stop it. Listen, I don’t give in to the propaganda.

I give in to so much propaganda. I take omega-3 supplements for 30 years.

Yeah.

I assume it’s gonna pay off. Maybe it has. I don’t know.

I’m about to buy some, so.

Yeah.

But listen, am I gonna wear a rated? No. No.

I’m already hot. Why do I gotta put on a weighted S? I’ve got enough weight on my, my weight, my weighted S is built in.

We’re good. I’m a D cup. I’m fine.

Yeah.

I’m an A.

And I said, why don’t just put this on?

Dumbest thing, I’m truly, I’m going to physical therapy for going on a walk. Like maybe, maybe just the walk itself was going to be enough. Obviously, it would have been enough.

Okay. So now, yes, now we crumble. Now we, now I pivot into a different version of my life where I am actively in crumble mode.

So Jamie, thank you for being here. You’re an angel.

What an honor. Listen, thanks for best. Literally, thanks for asking me.

I’m Nora McInerny, this has been Thanks For Asking.

I will always want your stories of starting over. I will always want to hear about times that you burned it down, pivots that you made. You can always call us, you can always email us.

That is 612-568-4441. It is thanksatfeelingsand.co. If you are a subscriber to the Substack, you get episodes ad free.

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It’s hard out there. All right? So when I thank the supporting producers of this episode, you should know that these are people who are paid subscribers who are supporting this show.

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We have a big thanks to Nancy Duff, to Jenny Medeine, Jordan Jones, Sheila, Kathleen Langerman, Ben, Jess, Michelle Toms, Tom Stockburger, Jen, Beth Derry, Stacey Demaro, Emily Ferriso, Stephanie Johnson, Faye Barons, Amanda, Sarah Garifo, Jennifer

McDaigle, Elia Filiz-Milan, Lindsay Lund, Renee Kepke, Chelsea Cernik, Car Pan, LGS All Caps. Oh, by the way, Jennifer McDaigle was also in All Caps. I forgot to tell you guys that. I think that’s important.

Stacey Wilson, Courtney McCown, Kaylee Sakai, Mary Beth Berry, Joe Theodesopoulos, Madd Abia Rose, Elizabeth Berkley, Kim F, Melody Swinford, Val, Lauren Hanna, Katie, Jessica Latexier, Crystal Mann, Lisa Piven, Kate Lyon, Christina, Sarah David,

Kate Beyerjohn, Erin John, Joy Pollock, Crystal, Jennifer Pavelka, Jess Blackwell, Micah, Jessica Reed, Beth Lippem, Kiara, Jill McDonald, Jen Grimlin, Alexis Lane, David Binkley, Kathy Hamm, Virginia Labassi, Lizzie DeVries, Jeremy Essin, Andrew

Brzezinski, Robin Roulard, Nicole Petey, Monica, my best friend Caroline Moss, Rachel Walton, Inga, Bonnie Robinson, Shannon Dominguez-Stevens, Penny Pesta, I love you, Kaylee, Dave Gilmore, my best friend from college, and Jacqueline Ryder. Thank

you guys so much. Marcel Malekebu produced this episode. Grace Berry does so much for us, including editing all of our videos. And that’s the team here at Feelings & Co, where, you know what, you got feelings, so do we.

See you soon, probably next week. Let’s say next week.