Worrying, Fresh Retirement and Movie Extras

If it’s Tuesday, the phone lines are open and operators (me) are standing by. Today we’re talk to callers from Honolulu to North Carolina about everything from worrying to working as an extra on Hallmark movies to existential crises.

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

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Um, how are you? Most of us say fine or good, but obviously it’s not always fine and sometimes it’s not even that good. This is a podcast that gives people the space to be honest about how they really feel.

It’s a place to talk about life, the good, the bad, the awkward, the complicated. I’m Nora McInerny and this is Thanks For Asking. All right, all right.

I’m Nora McInerny. This is Thanks For Asking, a little call in show where you can call and chat about whatever is on your mind. And I am waiting for my first caller.

Hopefully, you won’t hear my stomach rumbling. I did not time this very well, and I am extremely hungry, and I probably should have eaten before, but I didn’t. So that’s on me.

I got my timer, so I don’t go over time, and I’m waiting for someone named Laura to call me. So maybe I’ll just call her, okay? Hello?

Hi, Laura, it’s Nora McInerny. I have a calendar invite that says we’re supposed to be talking right now. So give me a call if you get this in the next few minutes.

It’s 612-568-4441. Maybe she was trying to call me at the exact same time. I don’t know.

Or maybe she forgot. Things come up, things happen. That’s okay.

Also, I just found out that I forgot to do something that was due on Monday. And I hate when that happens because I like to do things at the right time, not do them late. Here we go.

Connecting.

Hi.

How’s it going?

I realize our names rhyme. I know we only have three minutes, but that’s okay.

It’s okay. Well, you know what? I got ghosted and that’s okay.

It’s okay. It’s okay. Okay.

What’s going on? Tell me.

No, you didn’t. I had a meeting. I had a meeting, and I was like, oh, it’s going to be done in time.

And then, of course, it wasn’t. I work, you know, I mean, you know who I am because I work at a law firm and you interviewed me for your podcast. So, you know, I worked at a law firm.

So, of course, I should have known the lawyers were going to be.

You should have known. It’s okay. It’s like, guys, guys.

And I mean that like even to the girl lawyers. It’s like, guys, wrap it up. Okay.

I know.

Meeting’s over.

I don’t want to talk.

Meeting’s over.

Stop.

Yeah. No, I just I only I it’s funny. I was like trained to like unplug from my job during the holidays.

And I was playing catch up on all things that were happening with TTF and everything. And I was actually like paying more attention to your shift from Patreon to Substack and all of that.

And so then I saw this and I was like, Oh, because I will say I scheduled this only because it’s been weighing on me. Like two years ago, my mom was like circling the drain. She survived, but she was circling the drain.

And I was like, in a moment of my life is misery right now, I emailed you and I was like, I’ve and it was just more like, like I’m just blowing at Nora for, I don’t know why. And you like actually responded.

And it was like the most, it’s like what I needed in the moment. And then I was so, it was so chaotic. I never replied and I always felt guilty and then it felt weird.

And then I was like, she probably doesn’t even remember or care.

But I was like, oh, I’m going to schedule 10 minutes just to say, thank you for responding to my email and my like visceral moment of like, whatever it was.

Cause I was just out of my mind.

Well, if I can tell you anything, it’s one, I do remember and two, I didn’t care that you didn’t respond. I did not expect you to respond. I didn’t need you to respond.

I just needed you to hear that or read it or whatever, because I’ve been in that exact mindset, not that location, but like similar feeling. And just, I was like, this is, yeah, yeah. That’s like the real stuff.

But I love that. I hate that you thought about it that way, but I’m glad that you wanted to call. And I’m glad to hear your voice.

Well, I thought I just, part of my brain was like rejecting the fact that I never replied.

It was like, you are a bad person. You know what I mean? It was just like, I can’t, my brain wouldn’t let it go.

Well, okay, let it go now and get back to work, because yeah, we’re good.

We’re good, Laura. I’m so glad you called.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Oh, and side note, if we ever need a part three of About Bob, he reached out to me and he apologized for being a dipshit. And so there’s more to unpack there, but I know you have other calls, so I will leave you.

Okay, you have to, I’m going to text you, because we have to talk about that another time.

No, it’s, yeah.

Bob Three?

I mean, well, yes and no, we’re not quite there yet, because like, I’ve responded, but I haven’t, we haven’t really fully reintegrated yet.

Yeah. And so, but it’s interesting. If I’d had the full 10 minutes and my lawyers hadn’t sucked it away, I would have talked more about that, but I’ll schedule another time down the road.

Please do.

Please do.

Please do.

We’ll have more time. We’ll have more time.

Thank you for taking my late call and we’ll talk another time.

Okay. Bye. Bye, Laura.

Okay. If we can give people who are in crisis mode anything, it is the gift of not needing a thank you note for anything, not needing a thank you note for some of you dropped off, some of you said to them, some of you sent to them.

Just like wipe that. I understand fully that anxiety of not replying to something and then letting it build up and letting it become like a whole thing in your mind because I have those emails haunting my inbox and I just flag them for follow up.

And then I simply don’t follow up. And then it like haunts me forever. Okay.

Here it is. Okay. This was like right when we were launching this daily podcast called It’s Going To Be Okay.

I’m probably going to get interrupted with our next caller, but we’ll see. She wrote, I really like this concept, but I’m struggling to find the bright spots right now because my mom is in the hospital dying of end stage heart failure.

And you, Nora, know better than some that she was the present parent since Bob was not to be counted on for anything but absentia. How is this happening to a 61 year old?

Why didn’t she take care of herself even at the pleading of her kids over the last 10 years?

Help me find the thing that’s OK right now, because all I have is crippling anxiety that’s keeping me up at night after spending day after day in the hospital putting on a brave face for my siblings while keeping the medical professionals in line.

Somehow I know I’ll emerge from this because that’s how life works, but I also can’t see how that’s possible at the same time. And I wrote back, Hi, Laura.

Some days really should come with a free pass to throw a brick through a pane of glass along with the brick and the pane of glass. There isn’t a bright side to your mom dying.

There’s not a silver lining to watching the gruesome decline of a person you love who really should have been here for longer, who should have listened to the people who loved her, you, her kids.

Sometimes I can only see the OK thing in the rear view mirror. How my siblings and I folded into each other when my dad died, clinging to each other, weeping, holding each other up.

How someone baked his dying words into cookies and left them on my steps. They were so beautiful and it was so sad and we were so hungry.

Having someone else look at the storm cloud above you and say, hmm, looks like there’s a silver lining, makes me personally hope that the glimmer they’re seeing is lightning about to strike them. But you asked for an OK thing and I will give you one.

From where I sit across the country, a safe physical and emotional distance from all the wreckage. And oh my god, the wreckage, the pain and absolute horror. And it is horrifying in the truest sense, isn’t it?

Of course, you’re up all night with anxiety and of course, you’re handling everything, older sister energy to the max here. Yes, you will emerge from it someday, but right now, it just sucks. Right now, it’s just horrible.

And the OK thing is you. Your grace, your existence, you’re showing up again. You’re mothering of a mother, of your siblings, and yeah, the actual child that you are the mother of.

Take a minute today or tomorrow or tonight. Look yourself in the eye. Hold your own hands.

Marvel at who you are in spite of and because of all of it. Marvel at who you are becoming and who you will become. Because yes, you do always emerge.

I’m sending you love and maybe a brick. Let me know. That’s the email I sent Laura.

That’s the email that she never replied to. That’s the email that I never needed a reply to. And I’m glad she called.

I really am. That was really lovely to hear from her. We also did two episodes with her on Terrible Thanks For Asking.

It was called About Bob. And then there was a follow up. I can’t remember the name of it off the top of my head, but those are all in the archives on Substack.

So, oh, I love hearing from people who I have interviewed from in the past. I have no idea who’s calling next, and they should be calling in.

Connecting.

Hello, this is Nora.

Hello, Nora. This is Bob Gould.

Bob! How’s it going?

It’s going good. It’s crazy, but it’s okay.

Where are you calling from?

I am now fully, completely, totally retired, and I live in Honolulu.

Wow. Congratulations. That’s tough to beat.

Good job.

Well, yes. You know, society has said, I have done enough work for an entire life.

Yeah. That sounds nice. What are we talking about today?

Or can I just ask you about retirement? Because that’s where I would have gone.

Okay. I don’t know. I mean, I was going to ask you how it felt to not be terrible all the time.

Yeah.

It feels really good, Bob. It really does. It feels good.

And it also felt a little scary to, I guess, acknowledge or say out loud too, because as Stevie Nicks said, I’ve been afraid of changing because I built my life around you.

And I really did kind of build a life around terrible things, maybe not on purpose at first, but it just sort of happened. And it has been really wonderful and really meaningful.

And also, I think probably not helped my mental health after some time, you know?

Yeah. No, it seemed like, I mean, I feel like I’m following you because you’re like, you were ahead of me in littlehood by whatever it is, a year or two.

And so it’s part of the, I felt like it was part of the identity because obviously terrible wasn’t even a good enough description. It’s well more devastating than that. But, you know, and that’s, and no one got it.

So kind of had to embrace it. But then, you know, then it becomes part of, you know, my identity. And then for you, so much more part of your identity because, you know, it seems like it would be hard to change that.

Yeah.

And I was afraid, like, then then I would have nothing. And it’s like, you know, I thought a lot about the things that I tell other people too, which is, you know, you’re not the worst thing that ever happened to you. You’re not like any one thing.

There are multitudes within all of us. And I don’t think anybody who knows me or even just, you know, follows me online thinks that I’m just a sad person or that that is the only thing in my life is that, you know, my husband died.

I don’t think anybody has ever thought that. And yet I felt like I was sort of stuck in this mode because there were people who might need it or might need me to show up in that way.

And meanwhile, I’m telling like my kids, you know, you can, don’t let anybody tell you who you are. Like, you decide who you are. You figure out who you are.

And meanwhile, I’m like, but not me, no, no, no, me, I have to do, I have to do this. And so, yeah, and I’ve told people too, it’s like the things that happen to you. Some days, like it is the headline, right?

Like some days, you know, widowhood or retirement or whatever huge change that you’ve gone through is like the most important thing someone needs to know about you. And sometimes it’s like a footnote or a bullet point or not even on topic.

And I think that’s natural too.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, I’m very happy for you. I think it’s this whole pivot change is really, is really wonderful, because I think you went above and beyond in the field of awfulness.

And-

Oh, thank you.

You know, and in the early days, it was, you know, all I could do is to listen to your podcast, you know, when it was in such deep despair, but then, you know, things evolve. And then it became where I couldn’t listen, actually.

Yeah, yeah, I- Because it was too much. Yup, yup, yup.

Yeah. And sometimes it was like too much for me to make or to like go into the inbox. And then, you know, I had people working for me who had to sort of absorb all of that stuff too, who, you know, like that took a toll on too.

And so I am, I appreciate that. I appreciate you calling to talk to me about that. That really means a lot to me, because I guess I’m always just ready for people to be mad at me or, you know, disappointed in me or something.

And that is a topic for therapy, which I think is scheduled for tomorrow. So lucky me. How’s retirement though?

I need to know you retired to Honolulu. Like, what do you, what do you do when you wake up? What do you, what’s your like daily schedule?

Well, you know, there isn’t one yet, because it’s just happened.

I mean, the reason I retired to Honolulu is my mom is here and she’s 98 and living alone. And so needs help, but doesn’t really want to ask for help. And, you know, I don’t really want to impose.

And it’s all very complicated. But obviously, just just her abilities to do things are quite, quite limited at that. She’s, you know, she’s great for 98, but 98 is pretty frail no matter how you slice it.

98 is a long time.

That is a long time to be around, I gotta say. That’s a long time to be here. So it’s a long time.

And so that’s why I’m here.

And I grew up here. So it’s not like just coming on vacation. It’s all got all this stuff about, you know, elementary school and junior high and high school.

And so that’s all kind of tied in. So I haven’t really sorted all out yet, but I’m trying to take the position that it’s a new place. It’s a beautiful, wonderful place.

And I know I haven’t lived here for 50 something years, so I don’t really know everything about it. I know, you know, maybe history and other stuff. So if I have a routine, I get up and I walk about 30 minutes to Whole Foods.

That’s my destination. And then I buy like a couple things because I don’t have a car and I’m committed to not having a car. So I kind of learned this in Europe of this shopping method is like no trip can be wasted.

Something has to be brought home every trip because I’m not going to go in the car and get like eight bags of stuff. So I kind of go and get like some things carryable and then I take the bus back. So that’s usually how I start my day.

I think that’s really nice.

That’s such a good way to shop too because then you’re not wasting stuff either and you know exactly what you have and what you’re going out for instead of having a fridge with a bunch of stuff shoved in the back.

And you’re like, I don’t know if this is still good. I don’t know if I should be eating this or not. That sounds really lovely.

So I learned that in Europe because it was more oriented that way to markets every day and all that kind of stuff.

So and then I usually go for coffee. I have a couple of coffee places and that’s kind of my main social contact. You know, the people that work there and starting to meet the other customers.

And so I just kind of go and have coffee either once or twice and hang out. And then that’s the morning. And then, you know, things happen and, you know, something happens and then it’s night and it’s morning again.

That’s about as far as I’ve gone.

And then the day is somehow over. And that sounds so perfect and so wonderful. And I’m glad you’re back home but also not really home.

Like every city changes so much that it’s a new place, but you’re going to find new people there. That’s exciting.

Yeah. So, you know, I think I’m super apprehensive, but the actual not working part, very exciting.

It sounds so nice.

It sounds so nice. It’s like, now you just get to live your life. And do things that you want to do.

Go to the grocery store, like in the morning. That’s unheard of.

Yeah.

And go get coffee. Sit there.

Yeah, that’s, that’s, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s good. So that’s, so anyway, that’s, that’s how, that’s how life has started. But there is no, you know, presumably things will evolve over time, but I figure I can’t know what it’ll be.

So not to worry about it.

I love that. Well, we’re both embarking on new stuff and I’m glad you called, Bob. Thank you.

Well, thank you.

I didn’t know what this was for, but I’m like, I can talk to Nora for 10 minutes. I’m going to do it.

Yeah, let’s do it. Okay. Thank you, Bob.

You’re my second caller ever.

All right. Well, take care, Nora. I’ll talk to you again.

All right.

Thanks, Bob.

Bye.

Okay, so Bob’s a widow.

I met Bob, I guess, through the podcast. I don’t know, we emailed, and then we met once briefly because he was passing through town here in Phoenix, and I knew that he was going to be moving to Honolulu eventually. He lived in Europe.

He taught on, I believe, army bases. He was a college professor at international universities, but through the army or through the military in some kind of way. I’m butchering this, but lovely, lovely to hear from him.

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Connecting.

Hello, this is Nora.

Hi, this is Kelly Hughes.

I have an appointment with you.

Hi, how’s it going?

Oh my gosh, I can’t believe it’s really you.

It’s really me. I’m setting my little timer so I don’t lose track of time. Not you, me.

I’m the danger here. What are we talking about, Kelly?

Okay, well, I wasn’t totally sure, but I did write you a few different times in the last several years. My boyfriend died four years ago, suddenly and unexpectedly.

He actually drowned in a float tank, and he had done a bunch of different drugs prior to getting in the float tank. And I didn’t actually know that he was doing any of those drugs. So there were many layers to that.

Obviously, there’s many layers to any death. But this one was, I don’t know, unique to me. Everyone is unique.

And I realized that you have changed your focus a little bit. And so I guess I was trying to think about other aspects that have happened since that death.

And, and, you know, one thing I love about your podcast is that you don’t always end it on a happy note, that you just ended on a real note.

And I’m still single and alone, and that’s hard after four and a half years to feel like, am I cursed, or is this, you know, just never gonna happen for me?

And it’s not that I believe that there’s only one true love or anything like that, but I’ve just sort of been on a journey thinking about what aspects of my childhood have brought to my dating. I also… Yeah, I know.

No one teaches us like literally anything.

We just go out and date people and then learn on each other, knowing like literally nothing.

It’s kind of amazing to me. Yeah, like how does anyone find the right person, or like anyone who’s like 20, how could you possibly make an appropriate decision?

Amen. I didn’t. So that solves that.

Yeah, yeah.

So I’m 41 and trying to date and find someone.

And because I had this traumatic event, this really sad part of my life, I sort of feel like I’m off limits. And like now when I’m dating, people should only be like really kind and gentle with me. And people are…

Oh, yes.

Definite pass for everything. Like, be nice. My partner died.

Right.

Okay.

Like tragically, traumatically, and in a way that truly made my jaw drop when you said it.

Yeah.

You know, like that’s a jaw dropper. It’s like, yeah, people should be nicer to you. People should also like be nice when they’re dating, and they’re not.

It’s bananas. It’s like the commodification of humans, like just the swiping and the menu options and all of that. And I, you are not defective.

You are not broken. There is nothing wrong with you. People should be nice to you.

You are special and unique. And I mean that truly. And the right person is not going to be afraid of your grief, your loss, your pain, or any of that.

Yeah, that’s what the hope is.

I do wonder in this day and age, you know, like the political environment is really scary. We all may die in a climate disaster anyways, at some point soon. So it’s true.

And I’m sure you feel this too, like it’s interesting to have a perspective of nothing is guaranteed, and you can’t count on anything.

Yeah.

And you don’t have that perspective until you lose someone like that. You just, you can think about like, oh yeah, live every day, like tomorrow won’t exist, but you don’t ever actually do that.

No, if you did, nothing would get done. You know what I mean? But I also think whenever people are like, yolo, like, oh, you got to live every day, like it’s your last.

It’s like, well, yeah. And you know what? Like, I think the best days are kind of the days where nothing happens.

You know, the best days are just kind of like the most boring ones. Yesterday, I had a great day, like a perfect day. I could not tell you a single thing that happened.

And maybe that is cognitive decline, but I also think it’s just, I just had such a nice, peaceful day. Yeah. And I really did, you know, I found Matthew the most annoying way, which is like, I wasn’t looking.

I’m so sorry. It’s just the most, no one wants to hear that, right? It’s like, he just literally fell.

He fell in front of me. And that is how I found him. And it’s easy for people who are like, partnered to say, but it’s like, your life is good.

Like, you are, like, you’re the good thing.

Yeah, it’s how I’ve realized that I let somebody else liking me tell me I’m worthy. And without that, then I’m not worth anything, which is, you know, I mean, I know in my head, that’s not what makes me a worthy person or not.

And then I do have lots of good things in my life. And I hate that I give that power to somebody else who’s fucked up in their own way.

Yes, yes. It’s like, but I also get it. I also get it.

Do you know how many, like, men and boys and boy men and man boys, like, I changed myself for, to, like, chameleon myself into someone they might like, even though when I look back, I’m like, I didn’t like you. I didn’t like you. You weren’t likable.

Like, what was I doing? What are we doing?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s really…

And it’s cool to see this generation be different and have a lot more… Women just, or girls growing up, have a different perspective, I think.

And we, I think in our generation, we can, you know, be feminists or see the light and say, you know, I’m gonna rise against some of this.

And yet, I still like really care that I look slender or that, you know, that I’m catering to a man so that he will like me, because ultimately, I do give him the power, even in my head. I’m like, this is stupid, and why do we do this? So it’s…

Why do we do it?

Because it’s hard to deprogram yourself from, like, we’re the same age, basically. We’re in high school at the same time. None of the messages we got were good messages.

None of the messages were about us at all, like about our inherent worth. The messages were about how to make yourself worthwhile for a boy in cargo shorts with frosted tips and a puka-shell necklace.

Yeah, exactly.

You know? Like, oh, God, it’s hard. It’s hard.

Be nice to yourself because nobody was nice to us while we were trying to develop our frontal lobe.

Yeah, it’s kind of amazing. But, I mean, I guess that’s the thing, too, that then still makes me feel like I’m a damaged something, like other people figure it, like all of my friends from high school are married with kids and continue to be married.

And I know we all have childhood trauma or ways in which our parents, you know, only got to where they could get, you know, we’re just trying to survive, but it feels like what’s wrong with me?

Nothing, nothing. Being married does not make you special at all. Like it just means you found somebody who agreed to marry you.

I’m sorry, like I’m not, it doesn’t mean like I did any like thing to like earn it at all. You know, it really, it doesn’t, you don’t know how happily anyone is married at any point in time. Most of it Instagram is a lie.

I know so many people who I thought had the best year ever, now they’re like filing for divorce, you know, like, you know, just or whatever, right? Like nothing is as good as it looks from the outside.

So you got to make sure your inside feels as good as possible to you and no one else. And just keep your eyes on your own paper, which is a sign that hangs above my desk, because I am constantly comparing myself to other people.

Yeah, it’s a good message. I do just want to say like your podcast and the way you share your feelings and your thoughts have been extremely valuable to me and have really helped me in my healing process. So I’m just so grateful for you.

Well, I’m grateful for you for calling in.

And also, I’m just I just wish I could grab you by the head, pull out all those thoughts, put in better ones. But that’s the time we’re going with.

Thank you, Nora.

All right. Bye. Have a good one.

Yeah, you too.

So great to talk to you.

All right.

Bye.

What was I going to say? I was going to say that one, I do have a type. People who have lost a partner, they do like to call me.

That’s okay. That’s wonderful. Like I get it.

Life happens. I’m not saying like you can only call me about happy things. Of course not.

That was great. That was a wonderful call. And there’s so much pressure to like find the right person, like settle down, like find a partner.

And like life is really good if you have the right partner, not just if you have a partner, not just if you’re married, you got to be married to the right person. How do you know it’s the right person? I don’t know.

How do you know it’s the right pair of shoes or the right house? You just got to get in there and figure it out, which kind of sucks because I mean, you don’t know until you know. And then once you know, it’s sometimes too late.

Everything’s harder than it looks. Like nothing is like quite as it seems. Like I have a good marriage.

I like being married. Is it the simplest thing in the world? Kind of honestly.

But my husband might disagree with that, okay? Being married is very easy for me. I don’t know how easy it is for him.

But I don’t know. And I have not had to date in a long time. And I have a lot of compassion for people who are out there, just like tapping people on the shoulder and being like, could it be you?

Could it be you?

Could it be you?

Could it be you?

Because like, who knows?

But oh, God. But I especially do feel for women who grew up in a culture that’s deeply unkind to women gives you horrible messages. There’s literally no good way to be a woman, especially now.

Like, OK, so you build a career. Well, but did you have a family? Because that’s a woman’s highest calling, of course.

And oh, well, you have a family, but you’re working. I don’t know. But also you have a family and you stay home with your kids.

Well, hmm, aren’t going to use the degree that you got? OK. Oh, you just stay home.

Like, there’s just no way to do it right. So you have to do what feels right within you.

And you have to do the work that she is doing, which is trying to deprogram yourself from all of the messages that you were fed, that you believe are true, that may or may not even be true.

Connecting.

Hello, this is Nora.

Hi, Nora.

This is Carrie.

Hi, Carrie. Sorry, I was having some technical difficulties. I am wearing glasses now, and it makes headphones difficult.

I’m going to say that much. The cool thing about glasses is you can see. The hard thing is they do make…

You have another thing on your head.

Yeah. Attaching a whole other thing is a new skill to navigate.

Another expensive thing for me to lose also. But I’ve had them for four days, and I still have them, so that is pretty big for me.

Up and up.

Up and up. Up and up. Okay, Carrie, what are we talking about?

Yeah.

So this year, I turned 40, and I’m good with it. I’m excited. My 30s has been great.

Honestly, have been really good. I’ve career-wise have been good. My marriage is going strong.

I feel like I’ve got great friends. I’ve traveled. 30s has been killing it, which creates so much anxiety for the next decade in terms of just anticipated grief and hardship as people age, as things become harder and more challenging.

I think I’m trying to figure out and navigate how to enjoy the present and not get caught up in that anticipatory anxiety of the future.

Do you want to do you want to advice or do you want me to listen?

I would love advice.

Okay. Well, I’m gonna ask you a question first, which is what do you worry about?

Well, I get out the list.

I think that I worry the most about significant life transitions in terms of aging families and even friendships shifting as people grow their families and move away.

And so many of the things that have made this decade so strong and so fruitful, I know are going to shift. Like, that’s just natural. I know that these things are happening.

My, for example, my grandma’s 89. Turns out, grandmas don’t live forever. And so even though she’s fine now, I think I’m really struggling to not just always be in my head and instead enjoy the moments that I have.

But instead, I think I’m just dreading what I know will come likely over this next decade.

Yeah, yeah. And what does the worrying give you?

Maybe it’s fear of change. That might be it. I mean, exciting things come and change, right?

I feel like I can recite all of the like Renee Brown talk pieces of all the things that are great, not getting caught up.

And I do think that I fear what the change will mean, how I’m going to need to pivot, how it will disrupt what has been so great.

And I think I’m just really struggling to fit in, embrace and enjoy things being good, because I’m just waiting for the shoe to drop.

Yeah. I understand that. I don’t do that anymore, really.

Sorry. But I used to. I did that before anything bad had happened.

I was always waiting for something bad to happen. And people do ask me that a lot. They’re like, how do you just enjoy what is?

And I’m like, I worry, right? Like I have anxiety, but not about anything important. Like, you know, just about things that are like so far out of my control, that it would be like, I mean, what are you going to do about plastic water bottles, Nora?

You know what I mean? Like, what are you going to do about landfills? Like, what are you going to do about microplastics?

Like, everything’s plastic related for me. But, you know, like just like take a chill pill.

I really do have to like bring myself back into the moment in those spirals because, you know, I can like really bring myself like around the drain pretty quick about that.

But I think that that what you landed on of like thinking bigger and broader might be almost where I need to focus because that I’m thinking in my little microcosm.

And like, the anxieties of the world are there and somehow I dismiss it as like out of my control. Like, I can’t handle the fact that the planet is burning and that the United States seems to be in chaos. Like, so I don’t worry about it.

That doesn’t keep me up at night. What keeps me up at night is my healthy grandma probably dying at some point. What?

Yeah, you don’t have to be up at night at all.

I’m not trying to give you a bigger worry. That was bad of me. Like, no, have you thought about worrying about this instead?

My tip is to swap your worry for a different, newer, shinier worry. That’s bigger and really something that you can do even less about than your perfectly healthy grandma simply being 89 years old.

Like, grandmas die, moms die, husbands die, kids die, dogs die, cats die, really like anything that lives and that we could love, and even the things that we don’t love, scorpions, ants. They’re just deeply gross to me.

And here’s something I can’t handle. I can’t handle thinking about how many ants are underneath the earth at this moment. Like, when I think about that, I think about just all their little dwellings under the…

No, I can’t do that. So why do you even bring it up? But all those…

It’s true, all that stuff will happen. And tell yourself, that is something for future, Carrie. That’s something…

Let future you handle that. Because there’s no amount of you thinking about that that is going to build you the perfect plan to deal with it when it comes.

You get that through life and living whatever you are in right now, like, will make future Carrie more ready for whatever is to come. Because you don’t know.

Yeah, I think the fact that I am a planner is probably what is anchoring the anxiety. That I like to have a plan for what’s coming. And you can plan for all the good stuff.

I know how I need to manage my finances to go on that cool vacation. I know who I need to talk to to continue to grow my career.

I know exactly the like little pot of people I’m going to continue to tap into to be really great friends and support system. But I don’t know how to plan for all the bad things. And I think that’s where the anxiety stems.

And I need to just kind of accept that there are some things you cannot plan for. Or just life has to prepare you for it.

I mean, like, what would you plan for? You know, it’s like, you’re like, well, you know, grandma’s going to, it’s like, what are you going to do? Be like, well, I guess I can’t plan Christmas 2035 yet.

Like, maybe you can.

Okay. Yeah, my partner.

Maybe you can. And like, I want to make sure I get this definition right. Hold on.

Do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

Okay, this is it.

This is the, this is, and it is exactly the words I was looking for, but I wanted to make sure that I got it right, which is, um, do you know about tragic optimism?

No.

Okay. Uh, Victor Frankel, he wrote Man’s Search for Meaning, Holocaust Survivor. Um, one of, you know, it’s a very transformative book.

I read it as a teenager. I read it, you know, in, in, when my husband had cancer, I read it afterwards.

Like, it’s a very, very short book, but tragic optimism is basically knowing that there is pain and loss and suffering, and also believing that life is beautiful and meaningful, and holding those together.

So yeah, you know, statistically if you get out an actuarial table, maybe it was the last Christmas with your grandma. Maybe you’ve got six more. Maybe you’ve got 10 more.

Who knows? Like, she’s here now. And your friends are all here now.

And your career is great now. And something horrible certainly awaits you in the future, but you don’t know what it is. And all that worrying does is ruin a perfectly good Tuesday.

And that is harder to live than it is to say out loud.

It seems pretty hard to say out loud too.

But it’s like, I do have to tell myself that in the moments where we’re at Children’s Hospital, and I’m in an ER room with a kid, and they’re, oh, let’s just bring in one more person. Let’s see if it could be this. Let’s see if it could be that.

And I have to in those moments like that, like truly be like, well, we are here, and this is the only thing I know. And it’s not anything else until I know it’s something else. And guess what?

It wasn’t the something else that I thought it was.

Yeah.

But if it had been, me sitting in that room, freaking out would have done literally nothing.

Right.

Like I’m gonna feel those emotions eventually. Why worry about them now?

Yeah. It’s also like, you’re just robbing yourself of like, you know, there’s really, it’s not as though like, you know, you turn 40 and it’s like, okay, well, now, this is the decade, actually, where everything’s gonna go really, really poorly.

Or this is the decade where like, everything’s gonna, I don’t know, change happens so slowly or all at once. And like, we really have very little control over any of it. So enjoy this beautiful, beautiful life that you made for yourself.

And that’s a command. So, it’s not even advice, it’s literally more to, I want you to enjoy this life. I’m going to read a Kate Bear poem to you.

Hold on, I gotta pull it up first. I keep it on my desktop. I’m gonna read a poem to you, okay?

And you didn’t even consent to this. And I think reading someone a poem when they don’t want one is very rude. Okay.

I will enjoy this life. I will open it like a peach in season, suck the juice from every finger, run my tongue over my chin. I will not worry about cliches or uninvited guests peering in my windows.

I will love and be loved, save and be saved a thousand times. I will let the want into my body, bless the heat under my skin. My life, I will not waste it.

I will enjoy this life.

That’s such a deep breath of a poem.

You better enjoy this life, buddy, okay? And I want you to call me in three months and give me an update.

I will certainly do that.

Okay. Carrie, thank you for calling. You were one of my first three callers.

Oh, excellent.

Caller number three.

Thank you so much for the time.

Caller number three.

What a joy. Thank you.

Have a good day.

I missed the time.

Sorry.

Totally wasn’t what you had to call out.

It’s okay.

Guess what? I was just, I was tapping away at my computer, and I was like, you know what, I’m going to call her. I’m going to take the bull by the horns.

Thank you.

And look, it’s very hard to make a phone call.

Oh my God.

I’m not joking.

To like, I’m sorry. Also to like, these are also very small on the calendar. So I imagine that it just got like banked in there and it was tough.

So I’m not judging at all.

I’m so glad you called. Seriously, I was just in outer space.

It’s a call out show where I call out to you and you answer. So anyways, Jennifer, what are we going to talk about?

Oh, well, so you were interested in Hallmark’s movies that I had worked on.

That is right. Oh, my God. What a life.

What a Jennifer. Honestly, we might have to I might have to book an hour with you because I want to do something called What Do People Do All Day and talk about what people’s jobs are, because that’s I can’t believe. Tell me everything.

I wish I still did it.

I’m worse when I don’t.

How did you get into it? What did you do? What movies?

I got into it.

I had actually stopped working in like a business career after a couple of back surgeries. I couldn’t like basically couldn’t work anywhere anymore for like a while. And then there was a Danny McBride HBO TV show filming here in town.

And it was the one called Vice Principals at my high school.

So funny. I think he’s the funniest person on earth.

So they need like a core group of adults to be teachers, you know, just extras. And they filmed that, so it was only ever supposed to be two seasons, and they filmed both seasons back to back. It was a solid year of filming.

And I had been an extra like twice before. And I was like, huh, I don’t know what, something somehow popped up on social media. I’m like, I could probably handle that.

Most of, I mean, honestly, when you’re an extra, you spend most of the time doing absolutely nothing. Just sitting in a chair.

What does it mean?

Yeah, what do you do?

You’re the people that you see in any TV show or movie. All those people walking the streets or sitting in a restaurant. That’s, those are extras.

And we had these that were like 18, 19 hours long. And we actually were filming, like our little group of people maybe actually was on in a scene for like an hour. And then we were just sitting there the rest of the time.

What episodes of what episodes can we see you in?

I have no idea.

Mostly season two. I don’t really think there were a lot of things you saw me very well in that show.

Okay.

I feel like.

You have to email and you have to email and be there. I’m going to make you rewatch the whole show.

I don’t have any steel anymore.

Oh my God. I’ll give you my log. I’m going to give you.

So many people have it at this point. Okay. My kids log in and they’re like, who was watching XYZ?

I’m like, honestly, could have been anyone. Okay.

So after that. And actually, after he did finish that show, he moved here to Charleston and he moved his production company here. He loved it that much.

And then there was a little bit of a lull and this TV show called Mr. Mercedes. This is when AT&T tried to have their own streaming, which didn’t really work.

But this show filmed for three seasons. So I was doing the same thing on that. I, most of the time when I was working on that show, I was either a nurse in season two, or what they call neighbor with car.

In other words, they needed your car, not your body. But you got paid an extra 25 bucks when you did that. And so we would just like fit in the driveway, do nothing, and our car was on the street.

Occasionally, we’d just like move our car, easy money. But I had a chance in that season to, I was asked to do what’s called stand-in.

So stand-in, it’s the same person that hires the extras, but you are actually, you physically match the actor or actress that you’re standing in for.

So when they’re done shooting a scene from all the current angles and lighting, the actor step away, they’re called first team. And all of a sudden you hear yelled out, second team, that’s the stand-in.

So you trot on the set, you take the mark they were standing on, they move cameras, they move lighting. Sometimes you walk through the blocking. So basically the actors get to step away, take a break and we take their place.

And it’s honestly really fun because when you’re extra, the crew is not interacting with you, you are a piece of furniture. But when you’re standing, you’re interacting very closely with the lighting guys, the camera guys and all this stuff.

And I really, really liked it. So fast forward a couple of years, and I had a chance to go be a stand-in full time on a TV show for 10 weeks. So it was a TV show called Florida Girls on the Pop Network, which I don’t even think still exists.

But you can find Florida Girls somewhere.

RIP.

So there were four main actors, actresses in Florida Girls. So there were four permanent stand-ins, and we worked Monday to Friday right alongside everybody else on the crew. And that’s when I was like, yeah, I really love this.

This is where I’m supposed to be.

How do you find these jobs?

So honestly, all this stuff, I think the very, very first time I did something, it was like I saw something in a newspaper, and then honestly, I have no idea. I think, no, it was a newspaper ad, because it was Army Wives. So this was Dating Me.

That whole series was filmed here. Okay, yeah. And then from Army Wives, the same person who did the extras for that was doing a TV pilot that was filming here.

And she called me up one day and was like, hey, can you be a stand-in for a day or two? And I was like, honestly, I didn’t even know what that was at that point. I was like, sure.

So I was Alyssa Milano’s stand-in. And then, you know, I kind of had that relationship with her and there’s not that many extra casting people.

You know, you kind of have like the three or four main ones that cover Wilmington, Charleston, Columbia, Charlotte, Savannah, this whole Southeast area other than Atlanta. So once they know you, they use you.

And so that’s how, but although the Florida girl is one, I didn’t know anybody. I just sent my information in.

Yeah.

So yeah, that ended.

That’s great.

I’m like, I really, really want to try to do this. So I started, you know, trying to look around for ways to get actually Beyond Crew.

And, you know, at first it was just like a Food Network show that was here for a couple days or a commercial or just little things like that. And then the first real crew job I got was actually in the accounting department.

Bad idea.

That was not my happy place. Everyone’s asking you for their checks. You’re like, no, I can’t, I don’t know.

I will tell you though. Yeah, I don’t want to, I’m sorry. When people say accounting, I think I’m already sweating.

I already don’t know what’s happening. I’m already lost. There’s a spreadsheet.

So it was the second part of season one of Righteous Dunstones.

And I’m like, I need to get in on this anyway I can. So, you know, that was my in.

Yes. The best show. I think that’s one of the best shows to ever be on television.

It’s so funny.

And I’m so sad. There’s not going to be another season after four airs because HBO got bought and they killed it. Yeah.

I have so many friends on that crew. And that’s the sad news on that one.

Well, that’s our alarm going off. So, Jennifer, I…

I definitely thought we’re going to have to continue this another time. Yeah.

We’re going to have to… Yes, I’m so sorry.

Okay.

This is… That’s going to be… It’s going to be very important.

It’s going to be a very important phone call.

We never got Hallmark.

We didn’t even get to Hallmark. We didn’t even get to Hallmark.

Okay.

We didn’t even get to Hallmark. But now I know that there’s like a whole career that I had no idea existed. And that’s good because you’ve got to know that you have options.

So have a beautiful day. I’m going to go shove a snack in my face.

Thank you. Have an amazing day.

All right.

Bye. That was it, that was my last call of the day. That was my last call of the day.

Love that I had three widows, love that, right?

Three.

I mean, I didn’t ask if anybody else was.

It could have been possible that everybody was, but also today, the Surgeon General published an op-ed about how we should rethink how we’re living our lives, how we are so disconnected from each other, how we have, the United States is an

individualistic culture. Like we get in our one little car, we all drive the same direction on the freeway instead of having mass transit, except with a few exceptions for a few cities.

And then we come home, we park in our garages, and we go in our house, and we have our little food, and we watch our TV, and we put our kids to bed, and then we do whatever. And there are so many lonely people in our country.

I’m not saying any of these people are lonely. I know I’ve been lonely. I’m sometimes still actively, sometimes I’m actively lonely and passively lonely at the same time.

But all of that does take a toll on us, like all the grind, all the hustle, all the striving and the climbing, and we need each other a lot. You know, like you need people to get through this life.

So if you are listening to this, if you are watching this, if you are sensing this in a… through a portal that I’m unaware of in some other way, in some other universe, mind your connections today. Take care of your connections.

Call somebody. I’ll open the phone lines up again on a day. I’ll let you know when the phone lines are open again and if there’s something specific we want to talk about or not.

But call somebody, make a connection, keep a connection, take care of each other, take care of yourself. This has been Thanks For Asking. It’s a call-in show about whatever we are going through in life, and there is a lot of it.

So thank you for being here.