There’s Someone Dying Upstairs (Part 2)

 “Can I move in with you?”

Laurel Louise Anderson (lovingly called Miss Ma’am) posed the question to our producer and her son, Marcel Malekebu, in the summer of 2024. After nearly a year of Marcel asking and a year of her denying, the request came seemingly out of nowhere. His mom moved in, and Marcel and his wife Jenae became caregivers not only to their two very young daughters, but to Miss Ma’am. Caregiving is not an easy thing to do, but it is a holy thing to do. And in this episode, Marcel and Jenae are sharing Miss Ma’am and their lives with her with us.

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

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Hi.

Hi.

How are you there?

Hi.

Hi. Hey, Nora.

I’m Nora McInerny, and this is Thanks For Asking, a call-in show about what matters to you.

I’m Marcel Malekebu, and this is Thanks For Asking. For about eight years, I’ve been a producer on this show, working on episodes about all kinds of different topics. One of those topics is caregiving.

And it wasn’t until recently that I found myself in the position of being a caregiver. In the summer of 2024, I had just come back from a vacation with my wife, Jenae, when I got a somewhat unexpected call from my mother.

She told me that she wanted to move in. I’d been asking her for almost a year because of the many health issues she had going on at the time. But this particular call was different, because she would usually just decline and change the subject.

I thought that she’d never agree to it, so I had basically given up on asking. And so for the following nine or so months after that call ended, we went on a journey that was beyond words, the way life always is.

And that journey ultimately ended in the passing of my mother, Laurel Anderson. Miss Ma’am, as we called her, passed away on April 14, 2025 in the room that I’m sitting in right now.

This episode is part of a two-part series of a conversation between me and my wife, Jenae.

And while the conversation isn’t remotely exhaustive, it paints with broad strokes some of the challenges and lessons that we learned during our time caring for Miss Ma’am. This is part two.

You know, the day that you told me, hey, I don’t think that vacation is going to work out, I think it’s really poignant because, you know, you can think that you’re going to solve a problem, and especially for me as a man and trying to constantly,

all I do is solve problems when a problem comes up. And I think part of it was that I thought I could solve this, and I was, you know, till the last day, I was still trying to give her, you know, probiotic, this thing, this thing.

Well, not the last day, but till close to the end, I thought I could do something about it.
And so I think it’s one of those things where, you know, you learn about inevitability and you learn about, you know, I guess, atrophy and the way that, you know, like the way that things work in the world, everyone passes.

But I think when you’re so tied to it, I learned how much other people really don’t understand death through my lack of understanding about it and seeing it and then being able to, you know, see it when it was happening.

And it really made me almost more empathetic for people that really don’t understand what it’s like to do that and to care take because I understand how much they don’t, they don’t understand at all, you know.

5:01
The Family Strain

You know, you mentioned like the kids and knowing that she was, you know, in the room next door, she was also next door to us and she was in between us, in between our rooms.

And it made me think about, you know, the stress that it put on the family unit, like some of the stuff that you talked about, you know, conversations and stuff.

A lot of that stuff was stuff where in retrospect, at least for me, you know, I can only live from my end, but at least for me in retrospect, it’s like, oh, I see how that happened, you know, like that makes perfect sense that this is this way.

And but some aspects of this were just like difficult in general. I mean, we spent a long time. I mean, this was a process of about nine months of we weren’t able to go out and do things with our kids, you know, we weren’t able to date night.

It’s not like we planned to go on a bunch of dates in the first place, but we weren’t able to do dates, hang out, you know, other people would go on a trip or, you know, go out of town or something.

And I would think to myself like, oh, there’s no way we can do that. Like we’re, you know, this is what we’re doing. And it was like, it was like that was what we were doing for that era of life.

And the truth is, we lost a lot of sleep. I would have to sit up with her and talk to her. Towards the end, she got her cognitive decline got a lot worse.

And she started having, you know, she started seeing spirits and things like that. And so I think, you know, she had a lot of anxiety towards the end. Her anxiety was at an all time high.

And that impacted the entire house. I mean, we lost sleep. We felt the stress that she felt.

The children certainly picked up on it and would ask questions. And showed in many ways that they didn’t fully understand what was happening. But they also did understand.

It kind of made me think about, you know, what I think we might have needed during that time. Do you think sometimes about what would have been helpful to have during that time when we were, you know, taking care of her?

Because again, I think to, you know, I don’t like to get too graphic, but I think people have to understand it’s like every single time she used a bathroom, one of us had to facilitate her use in the bathroom.

And at the end, she couldn’t even use it at all by herself. And so you might be in the room with her for an hour, helping facilitate that.

And, you know, those are big words for a really messy, you know, and difficult and frustrating thing on her end too.

You know, you could feel the embarrassment that she had, the sadness that she had, the realization every time that she wasn’t going to get better and that this these problems would only get worse.

And so it was very difficult, like, you know, in my culture, we say like a man should never see his mom in that way. I’ve said that to you guys. And so it was a really heavy situation for all of us.

What do you think that we like needed during that time?

I think more support would have been helpful.

It’s challenging because, like you mentioned earlier, there was like issues with like insurance. And I don’t think we’ve mentioned this yet, but she was only 64 when she passed.

And so she didn’t get to have the benefits of the Medicare insurance, where we would have been able to have like a PCA come and help for a certain amount of hours each day or each week or whatever.

I think having somebody there to help more often would have been good. I know like one time your sister and your sisters came over and watched the kids so that we could go.

I don’t remember where we went, but we went to something, but we had like a date night one time.

And your brother came over one time because one of our kids, I don’t remember what it was, but she was in karate, and maybe it was when she received her first belt. I don’t remember what it was, but we all wanted to go, both of us.

And so he came over to sit with your mom while we did that. But like more of that, more of like us being able to do things as a family and go out, I think that was important to the children when we were able to do that.

And having more support for people that knew what to do with your mom. I think that was a big part of why it was hard to like, accept support and also know where to find it.

Was that, especially like after the hospice diagnosis, like that era like you were talking, it was like you can’t just come and sit next to her for however long we’re gone. And that’s good. Like there is a lot of involvement that needs to happen.

She needs her medication at a certain time and she needs to eat before certain medications and she can only eat certain foods or certain amounts of foods.

And if she has to go to the bathroom, like you said, it might be a quick ordeal where she can use the bedside commode, or it might be a very long ordeal where, like you said, I won’t get too graphic, but like, or it might be a long ordeal where

there’s a lot of gloves and a lot of wipes that are happening. And you need to know what to do with that. You might have to move her in her bed and know how to do that, because there’s a certain way to move her on her bed.

You can’t just, well, you would sometimes just like give her a hug and pick her up, but that put a big strain on your back. And like even knowing how to do that, it’s hard and it’s heavy.

And so like having people who were able to do those things, and that we would trust to do those things, and that your mom would trust to do them, because I remember even like when someone came by to sit with her, like she didn’t ask them to do things

that needed to be done. And so then when we would get home, it was like, okay, we were gone and we had a good time, we were able to eat a meal. But then when we come back, it’s like there’s a lot that has to be done still.

And so then we’re up and again losing sleep. So I think a lot of those things would be helpful. And I think there’s a misconception about when someone gets on hospice that you get a lot of support and that people are there all the time.

And what really happened was that her nurse would come once or twice a week depending on…

For like an hour, maybe hour and a half.

Right. And they would do hands on things, but really just if we asked them to do it, they weren’t there to do the caretaking. They were there to check on her condition.

And then there was someone who would come and bathe her once a week. But even towards the end, I was in there with them helping her bathe her because she needed two people to do it. And I was able to help.

So she didn’t have to bring another staff member. Whereas she told me that for other houses, when there’s no one there to help, then she would have to bring another staff member with her.

And so like even towards the end, it was like I was still doing it too. So I think that’s a big like misconception about hospice, that you get a lot of support. We did get some support.

And there was some things that were really nice about it. Of course, like it did make a huge difference having her as a part of the hospice program. And I would never say it wasn’t helpful.

But in terms of the 24 hours a day caretaking that needed to be done, like we needed more help.

Did caretaking for Ms.

Ma’am, did it change the way that you think about caretaking for your parents at all, or just when people caretake for parents and what that looks like, the reality of it, and whether or not you would or wouldn’t do it?

Definitely.

While we were taking care of Ms.

Ma’am, my dad was simultaneously taking care of his mom in California, and he has told us multiple times because of his experience taking care of his mom, that he wants to go to a VA hospital or a VA long-term care facility.

He wants us to visit him once a month because it’s out of state, and take turns visiting him, but he very much does not want us to take him in to our houses because he understands the reality of caretaking.

I remember before we were taking care of your mom, thinking, I guess if that’s your wishes, then I guess that’s what we’ll do. And my mom has said pretty much the same thing because she also took care of her mom.

But now that I have taken care of your mom, like I said at the beginning, at first I was like, this is a lot. And I can see the strain that’s being put on our family. I can see the strain that it’s putting on each one of us individually.

And I didn’t see the vision. And that made it hard at times for me to follow through on the vision. Now that she has passed, I think I told my mom the same day that she had passed that you were right the whole time to keep her here.

And I feel like it was absolutely the right choice. And the amount of care we were able to give her and dignity in her last however many months and love that she was able to be surrounded by that she didn’t always get to feel before that, I think.

I think that everybody should be able to have that. And yes, it was very hard. And yes, it did put a big strain on us.

And yes, and yes, and yes. And she died, you know? And I think that that’s the perspective I didn’t fully understand until she actually passed in our house, in the room with us, and we watched it happen.

And so while my parents may have their wishes, I have, I think that there are conversations I would have with them about how I’m willing to do that for you, even though it’s hard, even though it does put a strain on different things.

I think that, one, we have experience with it now and there are different ways that we would move if we were given the chance again. But I don’t think having her in the house is a way that I would move differently.

Because at the end of the day, we had to change a lot of things. Like it was not like, oh yeah, just come and move in and everything’s fine. And we don’t have to do anything really that big to adjust to that.

It was a huge adjustment from every single aspect of it. So we made it work. It wasn’t that it was easy for us or that it was like ideal for her to be here or whatever.

Like it wasn’t like it was just sweet. We literally changed everything about our whole day to day and our house to make it work. We made it work.

And I know that she deeply, deeply appreciates that even though it was hard to know that she appreciated it while she was here. She didn’t vocalize that all the time, but you could see it in her eyes.

You could see it in the way she would bite her tongue in certain moments because she did appreciate it.

And I think that, I think that that’s a gift that we were able to give to her and something that is a gift to us in different way, because it changed the way that we view pretty much everything by having that experience.

And it changes the way that I view the world and the people around me. And I have a very different kind of understanding of people who care for others in whatever way that looks. And so, like I said, it definitely changed things for me.

And if my parents choose to still want to be in a facility, then at the end of the day, they do get to have that choice. But I would do this again.

What do you think is something that, like, maybe people didn’t understand either during or after that era of your life that you or like for you personally, that you feel like people didn’t understand about what it’s like to care for someone?

I think that, I think a lot of people thought that we just had your mom living with us.

And I remember at different points, like, especially when she first moved in, somebody made, I don’t even remember who it was, but someone had made a comment about how, like, oh, now you guys have a babysitter.

And it was like, I’m not even going to go there because no, we don’t have a babysitter. We have to babysit her. Like, I think we maybe left for like an hour, maybe two hours max at a time, for like the first couple of weeks she was here.

But like, there was no babysitter. She could barely take care of herself when she got here. There was no way we were going to leave her with our two small kids.

Like, she couldn’t go up and down the stairs by herself.

Yeah, by left her alone, even in the first couple of weeks, you don’t mean with the children here. You mean with her by herself when she had her faculties a little bit.

Right, where she could use the bathroom by herself.

But even that, it was like, we were trying to, like, think about putting a baby camera up and, like, having it Wi-Fi to us just in case she falls and she can yell out to us or getting, like, an Apple Watch or something so that we could communicate.

But, like, no, we didn’t have a babysitter by her moving in with us. Like, we added on another dependent, essentially, to take care of.

And I think that even, like, once people understood that we don’t have a babysitter at our house or, like, a built-in babysitter, even once that was understood, it was still, I think, people didn’t understand, like, what a day-to-day looked like

here. Like, I literally didn’t sit down all day because I was either taking care of our two- and four-year-old or I was taking care of my mother-in-law.

And it was, like, hands-on care, physical labor care, emotionally charged care that, like, by the end of the day, you get the kids to sleep, you go in and give her her last dose of medication. Do you need anything else?

And you’re, like, really hoping that she says no, because you’re ready to just, like, fall asleep on contact with your pillow. Like, I remember when our kids were little, like, super little, they had a lot, a lot, a lot of trouble sleeping.

And I remember feeling like I have never been this exhausted in my entire life. And then when we added another person, it was like, no, I could be more exhausted, because it’s different. It’s not taking care of a baby.

It’s an adult, a full grown adult, who has lived their whole lives, and they have baggage that they’re bringing with them. They have pride. They have requests for things that they want or things that they need.

They have emotional challenges that they have to work through. So sometimes it was like, I’m changing her diaper, and we’re talking about an emotional thing that she’s aware of in this moment.

And like, okay, I guess now I’m putting on a little bit of a mom hat, but she’s not a child, you know? And so it’s like different. And I think that, like, I don’t know that I can even like adequately explain what it was really like.

And I think it’s just something that people have to go through to fully understand. Cause I think that the main person that I talked to, who I felt like understood was my parents because they both took care of their parents.

Even like talking with my mom about it was helpful because I felt like she understood it from my perspective and the woman to woman piece of things, that even my dad as being a son to his mom was a different experience.

It was still very similar and it was helpful, but it was just still a little bit different.

Yeah, I mean, I think for me I have heard from some people that when you’re going through some tough, that people still want to be included in things. Sometimes people feel as though, hey, I still want to be included even if I can’t go or whatever.

For me, it was the opposite. I was like, why would you invite me to dinner when you know what I have going on, and then you’re inviting me somewhere or saying, hey, are you going to go to this party or did you watch this or did you see this?

And it was like, when do I have time to do that?

I work and then I get home and we might trade places a little bit or I’ll cook or, you know, sit there and, you know, like you said, losing sleep in the middle of the night is funny because she would call the phone and then my phone would be ringing

at night multiple times. I got to go in there and sit with her. And I think the the main thing that people don’t understand is exactly what you said, which is it’s way too much to explain what you don’t understand.

It’s more than what you think it is. It’s more than physical labor. It’s more than heating up macaroni and cheese packets or something like that, you know.

It’s like when I cook, I make full meals. I was making full organic chicken noodle soup, you know.

We were thinking about the nutritional aspect of every thing with her food and how we could-

Smoothies.

Protein. How we could get as much protein in her meals as possible because of her pancreatic issues. And we were learning about all of the organs in her body and how they interact with each other.

And then all of the medications and how those interact with her body and how they interact with each other.

And seeing if there’s any possible way we could shift this or you have a little bit lower dose of this or a little bit higher of this so that we could, you know, like we were doing just like so many, we were wearing so many different hats.

And I think that that’s a piece of it too, is that when, especially you and I, like we don’t half-ass things, like we are very invested in as positive of an outcome as possible and trying to like change things and try something different.

Like we are very much those people. And so it wasn’t like we were just, okay, like she’s here and she needs to eat.

Give us the drugs and let me mix up a carnation milk for you.

Exactly. Like, or here’s like a frozen meal or something. Like, no, like he said, we were cooking full meals and she would only eat a couple bites of them sometimes, but it was like, that’s what she wanted.

So I guess we’re going to make that. We’re going to try to make it as healthy as possible according to what you needed. And like thinking about how we can do that and adding like movement into her routine and different things.

When she didn’t want to do that, it was like a lot of different hats were being worn and trying to really help her as much as we could.

And then even shifting our perspective on or in our mindset about what helping looked like from when she first moved in to once she got the hospice diagnosis.

And then I think there’s even a third part of that to once things progress to the point where we’re like, yeah, we’re getting close to her to the end.

And there’s a lot of different shifts that had to happen in terms of what care looked like from when she first moved in to when she first got the hospice diagnosis, to when it was very apparent that they didn’t just give her, they don’t just think

she’s going to die. We see that’s what’s happening right now. And even us, we can’t run away from it.

Yeah, it doesn’t. It’s like having a child. We had in this whole nine months, we had one overnight, which was you and myself.

We had an overnight. My brother stayed here, I think, at the time. But other than that, we didn’t have any.

So every night when those calls come in, when those requests come in, I still have to go and work. I had, you know, two different contracts I was working on.

And, you know, this one, obviously, working with Nora and stuff is a little bit more understanding. The other one, very understanding, lovely people. But it was very much like a jobby job.

And so there weren’t really any, like, you know, excuses or anything like that. So that’s I worked that way the entire time. And I had to work through that and even sometimes record things or do different things.

And, you know, like you said, there’s so much to what goes on that you can’t escape. And I think that people don’t always understand that you get to go home. You get to go home.

But we are home. And this is home for us. And this is our reality 24 7.

And it was up until the day that she passed. Do you, do you remember the day that she passed?

Oh, yeah.

What did that feel like when, you know, not necessarily the moment, but, you know, it happened in the middle of the night, basically.

I mean, I guess in the morning, technically. What was that morning like for you after not sleeping pretty much the whole night? And we were all up and my siblings came over.

But what was that like when, you know, they had to come and take her body and stuff? Oops.

I think that’s when it all hit me. It was just so final.

Like, it was weird because we had done so much preparation to like know what the signs are when someone’s actively dying, or when someone’s like right before actively dying, like what to expect in the last week, what to expect in the last 24 hours,

Right.

And then to actually watch that play out, and then what?

And that was what was hard. Because it was like, it hit me. Like, oh, she actually died.

And like you said before, like she’s not gonna get better, not going to wake up. That was just like, it sounds so obvious.

And while I’m saying it, it sounds so obvious, but I think when you have been so intimately involved in every aspect of someone’s life, like every single aspect of their life for the last nine months, and then you have to call the hospice line and

talk to a stranger and tell them that you’re calling for this person, this is their birthdate, and they died. And that’s why I’m calling you. And their response is, what time? Because they have to fill out their forms.

And then of course, they said, like, I’m sorry for your loss, and I’ll let your nurse know and all the things, right?

But I think that was something that was hard for me after she passed was just, watching, like, they need to know what time she died, and they need to know what funeral home we’re going with, so that they can call them, so they can come and put her in

And now she’s just gone, and she’s not coming back.

And then we have to figure out what to do with her bed, because that’s not ours, and they want it back because it’s a medical bed.

And then people just start coming to the house, and that’s good. And it’s a lot to catch up on mentally. And it was so quiet, because all night, while she was actively dying, and we were in the room, it was loud, which a lot of people don’t know.

But it is, it’s loud, and we were prepared for that. But then it’s quiet, and I wasn’t prepared for that. And then the mother in me is like, the kids are still sleeping.

I need to be up here when they wake up, or I need to wake them up so I can facilitate how they leave their room, so they don’t go and say good morning to grandma, because now grandma’s dead, but her body is still here.

And…

Yeah.

And that visual is sticking with me, so I don’t want it to stick with them. But I don’t want to wake them up, because they need to sleep. So then I…

Luckily, my mom was in town, and she was planning to take the girls the next day anyway, to go and do something fun with them. And so that was a blessing that she was in town, so then I could say…

I could call her and tell her that your mom had passed.

And instead of waiting until whatever time she was going to come, can you come as soon as possible, so that you can take them before the funeral home comes and takes her body, because I don’t want them here for that.

And I think when our older daughter got out of her room, I had like finally taken a bathroom break, and I heard her open the door, and I heard the door to your mom’s room kind of creep open a little bit, and I’m like running to get off the toilet, so

I can go and intervene. And I think that she did see her, because she said that, but I’m not sure. And then, you know, it’s just there’s so many pieces to it. And it was just a lot.

And I felt like at that point, I couldn’t really turn it off, and I just kept crying. And I think especially watching them take her body to the car, that’s like a vivid visual, that I have still, and that I still am working through.

Yeah, it was, it was a difficult day, but I was happy that she was here. I was happy that my siblings and I could all be here at the same time. They showed up at like two, three in the morning and we all sat up until her last breath.

Yeah. And yeah, like you said, it’s a very, it’s a very final thing. And anyone who experiences death knows that, you know, it’s very final.

And anyone who’s done any kind of caretaking really understands like how, you know, you’ve been sprinting and sprinting and sprinting and sprinting.

And it’s, it’s like a race that, you know, when you get to the finish line, you know, if, if your first place, it doesn’t, you, it doesn’t feel like you want anything.

All you can feel is, you know, maybe some relief that it’s over, you know, but there’s no, there’s no prize. And I had known that she would likely pass that day because she had told me, you know, by myself.

And there was many things she told me when she was in that state, in the in-between where she would tell me different things. You know, she saw the people preparing food for her and cake for her. Yeah.

And she told me, Marcel, you know, I think she said three days, in three days, and she just kind of went back into acting normal or sleeping. And I knew. And so I kept it to myself.

This lamp that’s still in here next to me, it was on her bedside table, and it had like three different settings, like really bright, a medium bright and a dim.

And when she first moved in, I was so irritated by this light because she always wanted a light in her room. She liked having a nightlight in her room.

And I liked it to be completely dark in the girls’ room because they needed it to be dark to sleep. And it was like an anal thing that I had. And I had to let it go because she needed her light.

And so every night when I would be in the room getting our kids to sleep, I could see a little bit of light through the cracks of the door.

And before going in her room, going in the girls’ room that night, I came upstairs and the light was off in her room. And I said to you, like, why did you turn her light off? She loves having her light on.

And you looked at me, you were like, I didn’t turn the light off. Like, you didn’t you turn it off? I said, no, I would never, I would never dream of turning your mother’s light off.

I don’t want that smoke. Even if she’s in the in-between, she’ll come out of it and she’ll smack me or something like. No, I didn’t turn the light off.

And we just looked at each other. And there was no way she could have even like tapped it because she was completely immobile at that time. And it was too far away from her.

And so I remember just being in the room while my kids were falling asleep and just looking at the cracks of the door and how dark it was. And realizing that she was likely going to pass tonight.

Yeah, I remember that now.

And then I think after I got out of the room, then we talked. And you told me that you felt like she was going to pass her.

Maybe she had…

No, yeah, I think we had that conversation. And then you woke me up during the night because either you couldn’t sleep or you had woken up and you heard the breathing, the death rattle.

And then we were, we called your siblings and we were just in here with her. So it was interesting that we both knew, but we hadn’t talked about it because we had our own… Like she had told you directly.

And then when the light was out, I was like, that’s her way of telling us that it’s time.

What do you think is something that you learned from her and this experience of like taking care of her?

Did, you know, from what you understand about her life, did she like leave you with anything that you feel like only she could have left you with or only she had presented that to you with her life, her words, her passing?

I think, I think one of the things that I am still. Grieving the loss of her in our home is something that I learned from her.

That at first, I told you that it was hard for me to adjust to having another woman in the house, because I was used to being the only one in the house.

And then there was times while she was here, where I would just be like having a bad day or like, I remember there was times where I had like a migraine and I didn’t say anything to anybody, or just different things that like I was dealing with, but

that I wasn’t communicating to anybody. So I felt like no one knew. And then I would just be moving throughout the house and she would stop me sometimes and say like, Jenae, come here. And I’d be like, oh man, like I don’t feel like it today.

I don’t feel good or I’m dealing with something for myself right now. Like I don’t really feel like talking right now. And that’s what the way you’re speaking to me and inviting me into your room feels like you wanna talk.

I don’t feel like talking. And she, like I remember one time specifically, she like did that and she stopped me in the hallway while I was moving throughout doing different things. And she was like, are you okay?

And I looked at her like, yeah, I’m fine. Like, what’s up? What do you need?

Do you need some, are you hungry? Like, and I’m going through the list of like things that she could potentially need so I can move on with my day, right? And she’s like, no, like, are you okay?

She’s like, I’ve noticed you moving through the house today and you’re quiet and you have this, like, concerned look on your face and like naming off all these different things that she’s noticed about me today.

And I remember the first time it happened, I was like, you pay attention to me?

I was like, what?

Because she was so, she had such a tough exterior, but your mom was very soft. She had a very soft interior and she noticed people, even if she didn’t say anything all the time.

But in that moment, it really kind of hit me that like, not only was she noticing me struggling, she was also concerned and stopped me to check in with me on how I was doing.

I think that that’s something that women tend to be better at doing, and that is also like a sisterly, motherly, kind of part of like women community of like paying attention and calling people in to see, like to check on you.

And I think that that was something that she did in a lot of her relationships, especially like when I would, when I got to talk with her friends, like earlier on in her life, when she was more like social and around people, like they all spoke about

how good of a friend she was and how she was always there for them or helped them when they needed it. And, um, and like even just moments or like stories about if like a partner wasn’t treating her friend very well, then she would like go cuss them

out or different things because she cared. And I think that like those things, because I myself can get really stuck in my introverted ways and not say something to people that I care about or even strangers like because we just notice things and I’m

similar to her in that way where I will notice people. And I, if you say something, you’re often right. And it can change somebody’s whole day because they felt seen in that moment. And that’s important to a lot of people.

And I have started to just like talk to people more, that I’m around all the time. Like I’ve been making friends with random people at like their dance classes or the activities that I bring them to, the parents at the library.

Like I’ll, I’ve been talking to people more. If I see something, I will make conversation with people in different ways now.

And I think that like, that was something that initially I was kind of resistant to because I was like, ooh, I’m not used to being seen, especially in my own house, when I want to like let my guard down a little bit.

But I’m trying to put it up because you’re here and I don’t know if I can trust you, but I can and she’s seeing it anyway. And so eventually like I would come in and like, can I talk about CBD on here?

She had these CBD gummies and like that was the only thing that would help with like when I started feeling like I had a migraine coming on, which happened a lot while she was here because I was just more stressed out.

Like I would come in here after putting the girls to sleep or whatever. And I say, hey, Laura, I feel like I’m getting a migraine again. And she’s like, the gummies are up there today.

You can have as many as you need. And sometimes she’d be like, give me one. And even just like simple things like that, where she would just…

And that was part of who she was too, just like giving people anything that she had, if it would help you. Like any snacks that she had, any food, like anything that she could give you.

Like I heard a lot of stories about that, especially at her funeral, that she was very much like, she will give you, she will help people. And she would do that with me. It’s like such a small thing.

You probably bought the CBD gummies, right? So it’s not like it was money coming out of her pocket, but they were bought for her. And she knew that they helped me.

And so then when I would ask her for it, she would check in with me like, oh, how’s it going? The next morning she’d see me like, oh, are you feeling any better? And like, whatever, take a couple with you if you need one for during the night.

So you don’t have to come back in here or whatever, kind of a thing.

And I think that it, I think that seeing her do that in the way that I felt when she did it, coupled with learning very intimately about just like the finality of life and how short life can be, it’s like those coupled together has changed the way

that I approach close people in my life and people that I’m just like around, but I don’t know them very well or strangers. Like I will sit and talk to people in ways that I wouldn’t before because I didn’t feel like it or because I had other things

to do. And I think that that was something that she struggled with in certain ways too, because she was such an introvert.

And so choosing to do something different in a way that she probably wanted to, but just had so many different things in her experiences that blocked her from doing it at points in her life too.

Yeah, I mean, that that all makes sense to me.

And it’s funny that you mentioned the whole thing about, you know, kind of being more interested or taking more interest in people after she passed because of how introverted and how much how she like was a homebody, like and chose not to do anything

for most of her later adult life. And I think she did that because of certain experiences that she had. But like you said, she wanted to live a life that was more involved deep down, you know, and especially in terms of that soft interior.

And I think that similarly, I kind of learned to just go for it, you know, because, you know, she sort of failed to act on that for most of her later part of her life. And there’s many things that kind of stepped on her.

And there’s many things within her story. This was such a short, short period of her life, you know. And this nine month period, it was a very tough period.

But again, I grew up with my mother in a home with just herself and my brother. And so I had a whole lifetime to know her. And she had a whole lifetime before me, you know.

She had lived basically the amount of time I had lived when she passed before I was even born. Yeah, I learned to just be more deliberate about, you know, going for what I want to go for and to enjoy life.

I think that was something that she really struggled with was like the simple, just enjoyment of life.

And I don’t know if it was that she thought she didn’t deserve it or, you know, I think there was many things that affected her that prevented her from enjoying life. It was a lot of fear. There was a deep sense of anxiety and fear.

And so, yeah, that was the lesson I learned from her life is that, you know, you just got to go and do that stuff. And from the things that she did do, like you said, she was so generous and she fed you in many ways. She fed you.

If anything you got from her, she would feed you. And people knew they could, you know, people could come to our house as kids and they could eat.

And even the kids that were just like in the neighborhood that were friends with me and my brother, they could come over and eat.

So, yeah, now that’s how I feel like I carry on is by, you know, recognizing the elements of her life that were formed out of her trauma and not reenacting those actions that she took out of fear and out of trauma.

And also harnessing the good that she had and the things that, you know, the things that she showed, you know, her singing out loud and during in the house as a kid and being like this brilliant singer and stuff like that and her being a good talker,

like she was a good, eloquent person and she knew how to use words. And she had that sharp mouth, but she could use it for good or for bad. And I like to think that I take after her in that way too. So, you know, yeah, man, I learned a lot from her.

Is there anything else that you feel like you want to say about Ms.

Mayim or any of this?

I remember telling her that it was. It was sad that the circumstances of how she came to our house and. Which then is why we got to develop a closer relationship.

But that I was really grateful that we were able to form our own relationship and get to have those moments and those memories with her and just develop that connection.

Because I think that if she had not moved in with us, or if she had passed suddenly before all of this, or something where we weren’t involved in her care at all, towards the end, then it would have been, like I feel like I would have missed out, and

I wouldn’t understand you and your siblings as well even. And so I’m just grateful that we did get to have that time with her. Because it just like helps in so many ways, you know? It helps with the grief that she’s gone.

It helps with my understanding of you. It helps with, you know, I feel like I gained an ancestor when she left. And like, I feel like she’s with me too.

And I don’t think I would have felt that way if I hadn’t had this experience with her. But I feel like this has been the hardest death for me to process. And like, my grandma passed away a month after she passed.

And like, even when we talk about things, a lot of times when I’m working through my grief, if you’ll assume that I’m like thinking about my grandma, and nine times out of ten, it’s me processing through the grief of Ms. Mamp dying.

Like, it feels together. It was a lot. And I think that separately, when my grandma passed, it wouldn’t have hit me in the same way, partially because she was 99, right?

And like, it’s expected, which just makes it a little bit easier, but also just…

Yeah. Yeah. It felt almost violent in a way, how she was…

how fast her decline and her death, and how much she lost. You know, she was 64. You know, she passed two months before she would have been 65, and could have retired.

She had worked her whole life 23 years at one company, and 21 years at another company, and you know, maybe a year or some change before that.

And you know, the organization and business themselves, you know, they’re not there to really go through any of this with you. They’re not providing any kind of support in any real way. And you know, it was sad.

It’s sad that she couldn’t retire and enjoy in that, like the thing that I had been trying to plan for her and do, and I tried to buy her tickets when she was better to fly, and there’s many things that I couldn’t do.

And you know, that’s another thing I learned, which is that sometimes you can’t fix everything for everyone else all the time.

And I think that to go through this experience with a person like my mom, being a person like myself, and you sit up with them for hours, multiple nights a week, because they’re so afraid, it takes you to that space, you know?

And you learn to be in that space with somebody, and especially when it’s your mom, you know? And so, this conversation, you know, it’s not exhaustive, it’s not even, you know, it’s but a slice of the story.

It’s a slice, a piece of our experiences of it. But I think that it’s good, you know, to talk about it and to hear about it and hearing you talk about it, because we kind of share this thing, you know?

Like you said, you know, you would be sitting downstairs and it, there was that, I guess, revelation or that realization every time that, you know, there is someone dying upstairs, you know?

And how do you, how do you explain that to someone who just drops by and, you know, wants to see the kids or something like that?

And I realized that I’m young, you know, and that we’re young and there’s younger people and people go through all kinds of things. But for our life, we were young and it was new and it was on hard mode.

I saw other people, you know, taking care of their parents, but they had help or they went to facilities or they had their faculties to them. They could walk, they could use the bathroom, they could eat. And, you know, that just wasn’t what we had.

So, I wanna thank you for talking to me about it, you know, and we definitely gotta say peace to Miss Ma’am and we love you.

Mm-hmm, absolutely we do.

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