The Widower (Girl, run)

Every once and a while, we get an email that Nora just can’t resist making an entire episode about. This week’s subject is dating a widower – but is she really? It seems like the connection is fading fast. Relationships are complicated, and sometimes, we all need a little tough love to remind us what we’re worth.

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

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I’m Nora McInerny. This is Thanks for Asking, a call-in show about what matters to you and what could matter to us more than love, more than the search for, the finding of love, the possibility of sharing our lives with another person. Now, we like to take your calls, your text messages, and sometimes your emails. Emails are… easier for people who honestly may not want to gab on the phone and also for people who don’t want their voice out there and also for people who might be sharing something that they are, you know, kind of embarrassed to share. I wouldn’t call this an advice podcast. Some people do reach out to me for advice and I have kind of a niche when it comes to that advice. And I think when I read today’s email, you’ll see pretty immediately why they emailed me of all people. So I’m going to get into it.

This is a person who is asking for advice. And I think that it’s quite a long email. think that instead of just reading the email and then replying, I think I’m going to reply as we read the email so you can see how I felt when I was first reading it. Now, this arrived when we were on our summer break. So I didn’t see it until I got back. And by the time I got to it, it had been four or five weeks, I thought, god, what is happening with this situation. So we’re gonna go through it pretty much chronologically. You are going to feel the feelings that I felt alongside me and that’s how we’re doing it. So let’s go. The subject was dating a fearful avoidant widower.

Hi Nora. Well, I’ve never lost a spouse. I followed your content pretty much since Erin’s obituary went viral. You’ve taught me so much about grief in all of its messy forms and in the last few years I have been grieving the loss of my marriage. We were together over 20 years. We have two kids who are tweens. We are all healing. The divorce process has been amicable and I feel hopeful for the first time in a long time, which brings me to dating. Specifically dating a widower. After a few fun hours of swiping and a little chatting, I met Mikey. We’re changing names here, okay? We live in the same town and his photos, which were solo and also with nieces and nephews, drew me in and his opening line won me over. It was, hopeful widower looking to find love again.

Definitely not your typical playful intro, but you deserve honesty. The rest of his profile was so on brand for what I’m looking for that one of my friends asked, are you sure you didn’t write this profile? Now, I got this email because I am the widow. I am the widow, and I married to a divorcee. OK? A lot of people would think, it’s like those old divorcee, widow, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm. That is a match. It is a match sometimes made in, you know, heaven-ish, heaven adjacent, and sometimes a match made in straight hell. I’ll be honest, okay? So Mikey and I started chatting more. He asked me out to dinner the following weekend. We exchanged phone numbers, texted nonstop for a few days, had a perfect first date. We dove in fast, but it just felt really right to us both.

On night one, he told me he hadn’t felt so comfortable with someone in years, the implication being since he met his wife. And by day two, he told me he wasn’t interested in seeing anyone else. He made jokes about being my kid’s new dad. We talked about if he wanted his own kids because I’m, you know, I’m not having any more babies. And I wanted to make sure we weren’t wasting anyone’s time. He said, hey, I’m okay not having my own kids if the right person for me doesn’t want more kids. Things are lining up.

Right? Things are lining up for this caller, this emailer. Right? You’re divorced. You haven’t dated in over 20 years. You meet a guy with a dead wife. What could be better? Honestly, you’ll never have to compete with her. You know, you’re not going to have to, you’re not going to see her ever. You don’t have to look her up, see like, God, her boobs bigger. She’s skinnier. She’s funnier than me. You’ll never have to wonder. Okay? You’ll never have to wonder. It’s, it’s, I get it. On paper, this is a good match. Day one saying you have a strong connection, that’s what everyone wants to hear. Day two, saying I don’t want to see anyone else, that’s what everybody wants to hear, okay? We want it to be easy, all right? And I hate to say both my marriages, they were this easy. They were this easy. It was like, do you like me? I like you, let’s do this, okay.

He knew it was my first foray into dating in over 20 years. And while I was not his first, which is a good thing, by the way, he’d only started dating in late 2024, which is a few years after his wife had died. We saw each other a lot at first. He lives very close by. He has a very flexible job. He has no kids. We had sex quickly. We felt very at ease with each other and wanted to share every part of our days with each other. For his birthday, I…for his birthday, I went over the night before, went to his house for dinner, gave him a nice but not too nice card I wrote, and he invited me to sleep over for the first time because my kids were with their dad for the night, even though he had an early work morning the next day, meaning the widower. He’s got an early work morning, but he says, you don’t have the kids. Why don’t you sleep over? We both felt pretty quickly that something was off about the sleepover.

I felt like it was just a misstep and it hadn’t been a good night for me to stay over and we’d plan better the next time, maybe a day where he didn’t have to work early, but he freaked the F out. After being more quiet than usual for a few days, he shared his overwhelm with me via text and said he needed some time to reflect.

I don’t like this. I don’t like this. I read emails like this and I am predisposed. I am not an impartial witness. I’m not an impartial judge. I’m an extremely partial, extremely biased person. And I will default to taking a widow’s side. Your widow, you email me, you say someone was mean to you. I’m on your side. I believe you. I will never take a man’s side over a woman’s. Very rare. I don’t think I’ve ever done it. Okay? So he’s a widow.

And I don’t know why we need different words for widow and widower, but he’s not getting a pass from me because this is such bad behavior, weird behavior. Yeah, we only have one side of this story. I really only need one side. I only ever want one side because I want to make a decisive statement, which is I don’t like this. I don’t like this. I don’t like somebody saying like, I like you so much. I’ve never had a connection like this. Wow, Nuts and my dead wife have I ever felt this way. I don’t want to see anybody else.

You finally sleep over, then things are off. And he needs space, and he has to text that to you. I’m sorry. We got to grow up. You have to be able to have a direct conversation about your feelings. In the moment, if you feel like something is off, then say, I feel off. I feel off. I don’t know what it is. He shared his overwhelm with me via text and said he needed some time to reflect. After being more quiet than usual for a few days. like he’s being cold to you. He’s being cold to you. Let’s just say what it is. He’s being cold to you. And then he tells you he needs space. okay. An agonizing week later, he broke things off because the sleepover had been too much emotional intimacy for him. And he was afraid he could never get there with anyone again after his wife.

Benefit of the doubt. I’ll try. I’ll try. I’ll try. I’ll try. It’s the same house that they lived in, bought together, she died in. That feels like something, you know, sure. I would have said that right away. I doubt though if you’re not the first person he’s ever been with after his wife, that you’re the first person to sleep over. But even then, like being aware of yourself and your feelings, being able to express those, that is important. We need that in a man. And I know you haven’t dated in over 20 years, but like we have raised the bar for them. And it can’t just be like, god, I’m just like such a complicated guy. No one could ever understand what this feels like. We have an imagination. We really do. And people love to sort of pit divorce and death against each other. Like, well, one’s like way harder than the other. I’ll keep my opinions on that to myself. I actually won’t because this is my show every time.

I’ve watched them go through a divorce. think, oh, I couldn’t do that. Like, oh, man. Man, oh, man. They’re walking around the world just not loving you anymore, not wanting to be married to you. Too much for me. Too much for me. know? Ooh, we don’t have to compare. I always say don’t compare. I think we do it anyways. OK, so he breaks up because the sleepover is too much emotional intimacy for him. I will be honest, at this point, at this point, was already, I was, I was. I was done with this man. was done with this man. Two days later, we run into each other because we live close by. We decided to talk more over drinks that night. And after four hours of talking openly, like we have since the start, we got back together with some new boundaries in place. I’m not demanding sleepovers or a serious commitment or even a definition of our relationship. I just wanted to get to know him better. Yes, I’ve played Everything Has Changed by Taylor and Ed on repeat a lot since the day after our first date. We have a great connection and great chemistry, and we don’t need to rush anything. Sure, yeah, yeah, I get it. Yes, yes, like dating is great. Although I will say he is the person who rushes things. He’s the person who told you he’s never had a connection like this. He’s the person who told you he doesn’t want to see anybody else. This is the person who told you he wanted an essentially an exclusive relationship, but also said he doesn’t want a relationship without saying that. He said, like, sleeping over is, too much intimacy. But, like, we can sleep together, but you just can’t, like, sleep in my home. OK. He doesn’t love texting, so we can text less. We can expect to see each other once or twice a week as we step back and try to actually date. Cool, cool.

Are these boundaries, I ask the class? I don’t know that these are boundaries so much as what he wants. Where is what you want in this situation? He doesn’t like texting, so you’re not going to text. Cool, cool, except it’s just hard. It’s not cool. It’s not cool with you.

I’m an anxious person. I’ve literally never dated in the time of iPhones and texting. Yes. Yet that’s where the rest of communication with everyone in my life seems to take place. I’m verbose. I wear my heart on my sleeve and I care deeply and unapologetically for people. And while I appreciate that we needed some communication boundaries, like, OK, and being with someone that fully matches my energy at this stage of my journey would definitely end in disaster. It just feels like he’s working extra hard to keep me at arm’s length now. Then go, leave him, run away, go, go, go, go, go, go. You did not spend over 20 years in a relationship that, you know, bore two children and like, you know, built you a built you a good life and you know, it ended and things are like goodish between you two, but it had to end. You did not go through all of that to be stiff armed emotionally by a man who is only interested, it sounds like in what he wants, like in what he wants. And you know what? Being energetic, being verbose, sending text messages during that, you’re not forcing him to read them. I assume that he’s not being forced to read these text messages. He could mute it, mute the thread, and come to it when he has time to. I don’t know.

I don’t like that this woman is acting as though she is a bother and like a problem because she like, I don’t like this. I don’t like this. just don’t like the way that you’re talking about yourself. I’ll be honest. Okay. Like why would being with someone like you be a disaster? I don’t think it would be a disaster. think it would be being with someone like you would be like being with somebody who appreciates someone is excited to see somebody.

You are actually the person with more constraints on your time than him. You have two kids. You have two kids. You have a job. You have a career. You have a whole self and past to take care of. He is not the only person with a past and with a present. OK. Working extra hard to keep me at arm’s length. When you feel like a person is trying to keep you at arm’s length, walk away.

I still sometimes say too much or let my anxiety reach a point where he feels pressured to spend time with me that he doesn’t have to give right now.

I don’t like that. I don’t like that at all. Like a person who really, really likes you and wants to be around you, you’re not going to feel like you are too much for, you know? And I don’t know what you’re texting. Maybe you are texting him just like absolutely annoying, batshit stuff. I doubt it. You’re an adult woman. Like you have friends. have, I don’t know. Like I said, I’m not in on Biasource and I’m on,

He’s on your side, I’m sorry. But I’m doing my best. I’m reminding him that he also doesn’t have to be perfect for me to still care about him. What does he say to you that’s nice? What does he say to you that’s nice? That he can only give you so much that he doesn’t have the time, that he’s like, it’s too much emotional intimacy. I have yet to hear a nice thing that he said to you. If I’m wrong, I hope I read something. OK? We can clumsily figure out some things together.

He’s very afraid of not being able to give me what I want and eventually hurting me. That is when I hear that, when I hear that from a person that is such a red flag, I’m afraid I won’t be able to give you what you want. Well, you already know what I want. What you’re saying is you won’t give it to me. You can’t give it to me. That’s fine. But like, I’m afraid I won’t be able to give you what you want and I’ll eventually hurt you is just saying to me, like, this is really not gonna, this is, that is a soft, that’s soft breakup language. That is saying like, I know what you want.

I know I won’t give it to you. So why don’t you break up with me? Why don’t you break up with me? know? Like, I like you so much, but I know like you want like, you know, a boyfriend, and I just want to kind of like, you know, sleep with you, but also not have to like respond to your texts. I want to feel close to you, but I don’t want you to need anything from me. That’s what this is sounding like to me. You caught me on a day where I’m full of hater energy. Okay, I’m not.

I’m not giving a lot of nuance. I’m not giving a lot of benefit of the doubt here, but I don’t like this. I don’t like this, OK? I feel like that’s the risk in any relationship. He’s worth the risk for me, and I know he has strong feelings for me. That is the risk in any relationship. The risk in any relationship is that you will get hurt, right? Like the person will leave, you will leave them, or they will die.

Something bad will happen. Who knows? That is the inherent risk in entering into any kind of relationship with any person. You feel like he’s worth the risk. don’t… Okay. And I know he has strong feelings for me. How do you know that? Honey, baby, how do you know that? How do you know that? Because I’m not feeling strong feelings. I’m feeling like…

His fears are rooted in abandonment as a result of his trauma and not being able to show up as a good partner after losing his wife completely changed him. Did this man tell you that he learned that in therapy? Is this man weaponizing therapy language to make an excuse for being just kind of a a kind of not good dude, not a great dater, like not interested in you? what do you mean? His fears are rooted in abandonment as a result of his trauma. Like, yeah.

Yeah, the things that we go through affect us for sure. I have been a very, different wife to Matthew than I was to Erin, 100 % of the time. Sometimes in our relationship or in any relationship, you will find yourself having a conversation, an argument, a conflict that it really isn’t between the two of you, but is between the two of you and everything that you have ever gone through cumulatively over the course of your years.

This is dating once you’ve dated one other person, right? This is dating as like a person in your 30s, 40s, a person who is like, you know, a used model, like got more miles on him, has some like dings, has some quirks, okay? Got to jiggle the key a little bit differently. I get that. I get that. I’m on board for that. What I am not on board for is just basically saying like, well, this is how I am and like, this thing changed me and, you know, I couldn’t possibly like…

adjust my behavior. When you when you want to be with somebody like you will do your best to meet their needs, make them feel seen and known and let yourself be seen and known by them. It won’t feel like this weird game of hide and go seek. That’s what this feels like to me. Like, does he like me? Is he going to text me? I really shouldn’t text him. I shouldn’t text him this much like, he’s got a job. OK, he’s got a job. OK, I don’t care like how important this man’s job is like everyone has job. OK.

This is where I lose it if you don’t think I’ve lost it yet. OK, he’s currently away for three weeks, and I haven’t heard a word from him in 10 days since the night before he left for the trip. He had told me he wanted to unplug. I mean, if you’re going to the bottom of the Grand Canyon, sure. He’s stressed about other things in life too that he needs time to reflect on, but I wasn’t expecting complete radio silence, and I feel like I’ve pushed him away. He ran. He ran. He left. You did not push him away.

He left. He told you. He basically told you, I’m not going to talk to you while I’m gone. But he did not have the bravery to just say, we’re not going to be talking while I’m gone. Like, if you weren’t expecting radio silence, he was. He definitely was expecting radio silence. He was expecting to not contact you at all. And it does not sound like he cares how that would make you feel. How that would make you feel. Because this man does not care. This man does not care.

Does not care. He said on the first date, I’ve never felt a connection like this second day, not even date, second day of talking. I don’t want to see anybody else. And now he is going to not speak to you for weeks. And you think you pushed him away? Okay. I know grief is not linear, but the trauma of losing his wife years ago. And if I may be so bold, finding a strong connection in me very quickly after meeting has made him run the opposite way. I am crazy about him and I don’t know the right thing to do right now.

I’m giving him space, resisting texting him while he’s away, but it’s kind of killing me. This is not for you. This is not for you. It’s not for you. You did not do anything wrong. This is not the guy. This is not the guy. He was never going to be the guy. He tricked you into thinking that he was the guy. Maybe even honestly, he tricked himself. Maybe on that first day or two, he thought, yeah, yeah, and then thought, no, it’s not, but I don’t want to have that adult conversation. And you know what? I’ve been him.

I’ve been him. I have made people feel probably the same way. There are probably people out there telling very similar stories about having dated me briefly, right? Like, wow, she just said like it was so incredible and we had such a connection. And then like, you know, she just said she doesn’t want to talk. She couldn’t really talk during the day or, you know, maybe we could expect to see each other like sometimes, but not at all. Like it, it, this is not, it’s not good behavior. It’s not good behavior. I’m saying I’ve done it and it’s not good behavior. Okay.

He’s done a ton of work to take care of himself the last few years. He goes to therapy. Of course he does. Produretive. He exercises. He journals, et cetera, et cetera. And that led him to a place of feeling ready for dating. But the moment it got real, he started shutting it down.

You have to stop trying to get in this guy’s head. I’m telling you right now, you’re not in it. You’re not thinking his thoughts correctly. There’s no way to do it, but you’ll never understand. You’ll never understand this. Okay. I feel like he can’t magically be ready for a relationship by living in a vacuum, but he seems terrified to actually experience what this relationship could be. He also seems scared to sacrifice any of the independencies formed.

over the years since his wife died, even though he’s also looking to find love again. And I feel like that independence and introverted behavior is actually rooted in a lot of loneliness. We have to stop trying to analyze men and get in their heads. I’m sorry. We can try to understand them. can try to have conversations with them, right? You can try to have conversation with him and to understand him that way, but we got to stop therapy men based on their weird anti-social behavior and then basically just

kind of giving them an out. Like you’re saying like, my God, well, you just couldn’t help it because like his wife died. Now he had to like pick himself. Like.

I know a lot of widows. I know a lot of widows who have found love again. I know a lot of widows who have not found love again. I know a lot of widows who have found love and it didn’t work out and that’s okay. But the rules don’t really, the rules of a relationship don’t change just because your wife died or your husband died. The rules of a relationship don’t really change because you got a divorce or somebody left you or betrayed you. The rules of a relationship are you show up and you let somebody in.

and you learn what they need and you express what you need and you work on things together. And sometimes things do move really, really quickly and you get like, like ahead of it. I think people say ahead of your skis. I’ve never been skiing. So I probably shouldn’t say that. Sometimes it feels like you started running downhill. No one can run downhill without looking like a dork unless you’re like an Olympic runner. And even then you kind of look like a dork. You start running into a relationship and you’re like, whoa, whoa, we’re going too fast. And I’m falling, right?

Head over heels is an awkward way to fall. And sometimes you are not actually falling into a relationship, you’re falling into just a abyss, a trap, and that is what this is. having loneliness, having like trauma, like going to therapy, like I don’t know about all this like attachment style stuff. I just know that we as women are very eager to

apply these things to men who are really not giving the same level of analysis and consideration to us. That’s the actual problem. That’s the problem. We’re giving all of this mental energy, all of this grace, all of this empathy to a man who truly you could have died in those 10 days since he reached out to you. He wouldn’t know. He wouldn’t know. He wouldn’t know. Why wouldn’t he know? Because he didn’t really care. He didn’t really care.

Okay.

da da da. Like as women, we’re willing to say like this, you know why he’s treating me like this? It’s rooted in introvertedness and loneliness, you know, and avoid an attachment style. It’s like, you know what? Sometimes people are just jerks. Like sometimes people are just jerks. Should I just set him free and save myself this anxiety no matter how strong our connection feels? Yes. Yes. I recorded a version of this earlier.

A garbage truck went by and I thought it’s a sign. Dump him. Dump him. Dump him like the garbage truck that was just, you know.

picking up garbage on my street.

Should I keep giving him space, but in turn leave myself open to this confusion and feeling of being avoided in the name of him still working his way through the muck of his grief? No, no. You aren’t a rehab facility for broken men. That is not your purpose on this earth. No, no, no. You should not keep giving him space, but leave yourself open. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because he’s not even open to you. He is not. No.

Do not. You felt a very strong connection. I have felt so many, so many strong connections with people. While you were out getting married 27 years ago, I was out doing the opposite of getting married. I have felt incredible, just like struck by lightning soul connections. Cannot believe it. This person makes me like laugh so much. my God, I want to talk to him all day, every day. It was a connection. wasn’t a relationship. It was a connection for a moment in time, not for all time. And I have an appreciation for those now that I didn’t in the moment when I was just thinking, God, why can’t we make this work? It was never going to work. We cross paths with so many people in our lifetime. We cross paths with so many people that we can have that strong connection with where you just think, God, could that have ever worked out? most of them don’t and can feel this gratitude for the fact that like, you know,

You felt it at all for the amount of time that you did. And you also have to know you deserve more than just that, that bolt of electricity. You deserve a sustained current. Why am I trying to make electricity analogies? Why? Why am I trying to do that? I don’t know.

This message is very long, but I’m so confused. I need some real talk from someone who might understand more of where he’s coming from as a grieving widower with a side of fearful avoidance. Stop seeing fearful avoidance. Stop giving him. Even if he was like, that’s what my therapist said, shut up. Stop. Stop. I’m being very disrespectful to whatever attachment theory right now. But like, come on. We cannot use these things as crutches. We cannot use them as excuses, as honestly as weapons, as shields. sorry, I’m actually fearful avoidant. sorry.

I know I said I’ve never felt a connection like this with anybody else and like I don’t want to see anybody else, but I’m fearful of what it’s like. I actually don’t want to see you. I just want you to see me and all of my needs and then I will. Like I just I’m not into that. I am not into that insights into how he is feeling as a widow. I don’t know like when you. Again, again, it’s very hard for me to set aside the fact that you are a woman and I am a woman and we’re talking about a man.

Of course, of course, I have empathy for a widow. That is a different kind of loss. really does. It can mark you. It can change you. Certainly, it has to change you. You are supposed to be changed. But grief, especially, can either open you up to the world, open you up to the fact that you are not the center of the world.

that what you think sets you apart, this loss that you’ve experienced, your wife died, is actually what makes you a part of the world. That we all experience loss, that we all experience grief, that we are all so small and the world is so big and we are all interconnected on this cosmic level, or your loss, your grief can shut you down and make you so weird and so selfish. It can turn you into Gollum. Your grief is your ring. It is your precious and you need to stay in that little cave, just looking at it and your hair falls out and you’re just eating fish, raw fish and no one can understand you anymore. You’re ugly. I’m not saying that this man is, I think you thought he was pretty hot, but like, you know, you can golem your grief and make it like the center of your world and can make you ugly or you can let it transform you and transform your life into something bigger, something more expansive, something that is integrated into something that integrates what you had with what you have. The love that you have and experience like firsthand with your dead spouse and the love that you still have inside of you to grow. And that’s like when I look at my relationship with Matthew, I was not as far along. I was not as far out as this man that you were attempting to date. I was not. was barely a year out, not ready at all, not interested in any kind of relationship whatsoever. I wanted to sleep with someone, and that was kind of it. But being in Matthew’s presence, being with somebody who could be so present with what I was going through, being with somebody who had gone through something so different from what I was going through, and really wanting to know more about him, like, like it helped me, it did help me. It helped me, of course, of course. It helped like, it helped that wound not feel so bloody. I’m gonna cry. And I had been so afraid that like loving anyone else would be, would mean losing the love that I had with Aaron.

It’s been 10 years. I still cry like this. So I’m not trying to diminish what this man has been through. That love stays with you. And it’s not going to run out. It’s not a finite resource. And that love, there’s just traces of that love that I had with Aaron. And this love with Matthew, he made it possible.
And I didn’t have to fight. I didn’t have to fight for either one. I didn’t have to fight for either one. And I know everybody’s relationships are different, but I’m predisposed to believing that mine are better than everybody else’s. And I just think that if you have to fight for somebody to love you and see you and give you the things that you need so early on in a relationship, what hope do you have? So.

What was I going to say? I got lost a little bit. I got lost a little bit. So yeah, that connection was…
The connection that you felt was real, but what you’re doing in this email is you are attributing all of the magic of this connection to him, to who he was. You are half of that connection. If not, mean, based on this email, like 70 % of this connection, you are a special thing. Like you have that spark. You are that magic. Like you are not too much for somebody else. It doesn’t matter if you haven’t dated in 20 years, matter if like you like to talk a lot and like you like to see somebody there is somebody out there who has a hole in their life that is the exact shape of you and and cannot wait to find you will gladly you know make extra room for the parts of yourself that you think are too much and that is what i want for you i do not want this man for you like widow divorcee

Sometimes, sometimes not in this case, not this widow, not this divorcee, no. So I got this email in June. I’m replying to this. Weeks later, I actually reached out over email before I recorded this just to say, hey, I’m about to record or apply. Is there anything else that I should know? Like, have you guys, know?

Have you guys gotten married? Before I really put my foot in it, what do I need to know? So she wrote, my god, I’m so sorry for the giant word vomit back in June. I was clearly losing it. And it’s crazy that you wrote today because he and I haven’t spoken since he left for his travels. So looking at the calendar, it’s been at least six weeks. It’s been at least seven weeks. don’t know. My calendar doesn’t even have June up on it or July anymore. I don’t know why I’m looking at the calendar. So I haven’t spoken in over a month at this point. Going on to, I’ve cried a ton since then and forced myself back on Bumble to get over him, I just decided to reach out to him today, mere hours ago. This hour is before my email arrives. OK.

because I was starting to kind of feel worried about his mental state. The anniversary of losing his wife was a few weeks ago. Her birthday is coming up, et cetera. Lots of hard times to face. OK, before I read the text that she sent him, I told my daughter this. I told my daughter’s friends this because I wish that I could go back in time and tell every version of myself this, when you treat somebody the way that you want to be treated in a relationship and they won’t do that for you, you stop. You have to stop. You have to stop. You have to stop. You are reaching out to this man because it’s a thoughtful thing and you would want him to do it. He would never do this. He would never do this. What have you gone through in the past six weeks? He wouldn’t know. He wouldn’t know. He’s not clocking important dates and anniversaries for you at all. I see, whenever I see a, a girl, a woman doing this for a man who has not shown her the same level of consideration. I’m, mm-mm. OK. So the text. I shouldn’t care because ghosting me was really crappy and I didn’t deserve that. But I guess my old empathetic habits die hard. I know you were feeling lost about a lot of things when we were still speaking. So here I am, still caring and checking in to see if you’re doing OK. The next time you want to text this man, any man, any person you’re dating who has not proven to give a about you. The next time you want to do that, don’t. Text me, the number 612-568-4441. Text your best friend. Text your mom. Be like, I’m about to send this text. Tell me not to. And then don’t send it. You will feel so much better not sending these texts, not putting a little piece of yourself out there into the ether. Do not do it. OK. His response a few hours later. I think that is an unfair and one-sided perspective.

I wasn’t feeling heard. We both stopped communicating. I am sorry how things ended.

She replies, I would like to hear your perspective because I felt pretty certain I was ghosted. I never heard from you after I apologized, gave you space during your weeks of travel, and then never heard from you again. I felt too humiliated to reach out before today. I guess we both misread the situation. So I’m back to being confused all over again that he thought we both stopped communicating. He didn’t think that. He didn’t think that. He is making an excuse. He knows.

He knows that he was never gonna reach out to you when he left for that trip that he never did. He was kind of relieved that you didn’t reach out to him because then he can be like, see, we both stopped communicating. You didn’t text me, I didn’t text you. But he knew that based on all the conversations you had that you knew that you couldn’t text him because that’s not what he wants. He does not wanna be texted. He wants to reach out to you when he wants to be texted. Someone is going to listen to this podcast and say this woman is me, Nora, is so deranged. She’s being so mean to this man. Yeah, I am. Okay, I got my period yesterday. What do you want from me?

Okay. We may talk more soon. Don’t, don’t, don’t talk to this man. Don’t talk to him. Block his number. You see him in public, be like, hi loser, like, bye. Don’t talk to this man. You will never get what you want from him, ever, ever. You had a nice drunk connection. Take that warm fuzzy memory. Take those like hot memories, like pack them up. No.

No, no, no. Do not. Do not talk to, do not speak to this man. Do not speak to this man. Okay.

I feel like he’s still telling him the story he wants to believe. Let him believe it. Let him believe it. Let him believe whatever story he wants to tell. You will never, you will never successfully convince the wrong guy that you are the right girl. Ask me how I know. Ask me how I know. Again, you were married when I was practicing a different version of being in my 20s. There are people who I had such a strong connection with that I was like, I’m gonna win you over. I’ll win you over by proximity. I’ll win you over by just being available when you text. I can’t remember their names. I don’t know. Vague. I don’t know. At one point in time, I had also slept over at their house. I had also felt like I had a very strong connection. Don’t know who they are. Would not recognize them out in public. Okay? Things change.

He’s still telling him the story he wants to believe because running away feels easier than feeling emotions for someone who isn’t his wife. No, no, will someday. Someday he will. Someday he will have a relationship or he won’t. Who knows? But like it is absolutely not your job and not in your best interest emotionally and spiritually to try to like be like, and that’s why it didn’t work out with me because you were actually too afraid. No, no, no, no. Write it in your journal.

Tell your friends, tell me, a complete stranger on a podcast, do not say that. Don’t say it, don’t say it, don’t say it, don’t say it. Okay, I’m sure you don’t have time to read my complete long ass rambling emotional message on the podcast.

Joke’s on you, baby. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. And I wrote, you know, I’m making this very vague in my responses. I glossed over a lot of details, right? There’s not a lot of details here. And she replied, I don’t know why he has such a hold on me, but it has been rough. He has a hold on you because you are coming out of a long marriage. That’s why. And you got to feel a connection. You got to date and it was a brrrr and you were so relieved that it was that easy and you thought, great, I’m done. You’re not done. And that’s okay. That’s okay. I promise you that is okay. you have to remember every single person who hears this, okay? Like for the five men who listened to this podcast and for all of the women in the days and the gays who listened to this podcast and the five straight men, you have to remember like you are the special thing, too. You are the special thing. You are not treasure hunting. You are the treasure. Remember that, please. I’m Nora McInerney. This has been Thanks For Asking. I know that this has to be one of our most deranged episodes. I didn’t know that I would do this. I did not know that I would react this way. I did know. I did know.

I know I knew I knew because I told Marcel about it and he said you’re going to this one’s going to make you crazy and I said yeah it will buddy but this is thanks for asking this is a podcast where you can write in you could call in you could text in whatever you need we can talk about things the number is 612-568-4441 the email is thanks at feelings and dot co we are an independent podcast that’s on purpose. There’s a lot of ways to support the show. If you’re listening to this on the podcast apps. Thank you so much. We also have a YouTube channel with 10,000 subscribers guys. That is that’s that’s bananas. That’s apparently not a lot for YouTube. But guess what? It felt good for me. So let me celebrate it. How about that? We are independent on purpose. We like it this way. So every time you like or share or tell a friend about it, it means a lot and it helps us so much. We

don’t have Patreon anymore. don’t have Apple+. We moved all the ad-free episodes, all of the archives, everything like that over to norahboriales.substack.com. That’s my sub stack. You can either join monthly, annually, or you can kick in a little bit extra and become a supporting producer, which means you get your name in the credits. So I am going to read those credits right now.

Do do do do do doooo

We are supporting producers.

Right? So yeah, these are our supporting producers. You could become one. You could become one. You could join over at our sub stack. be in our episode description. could join and have your name read in the credits. What a glorious experience, right? OK, come on, guys.

Here we go. All right, so let’s thank our supporting producers, Nancy Duff, our latest one, Jenny Medellin, Jordan Jones, Sheila, Kathleen Langerman, Ben, Jess, Michelle Toms, Tom Stockburger, Jen, Beth Derry, Stacey Demoro, Emily Ferriso, Stephanie Johnson, Faye Barron’s, a widow, a widow. I’m gonna name everyone who’s a widow that I know of. Amanda, Sarah Garifo, Jennifer McDagle in all caps. Elia, Filiz Milan, Lindsay Lund, Renee Kepke, Chelsea Cernick, Car Pan, LGS, just those initials, all caps, Stacey Wilson, Courtney McCown, Kaylee Sakai, Mary Beth Berry, my high school gym teacher, Joe Theodysopoulos, widow, Mad, Abia Rose, Elizabeth Berkley, Kim F., Melody Swinford, can’t remember, Melody, are you a widow? I can’t remember, Val, Lauren Hannah, Katie, Jessica Latexier, Crystal Mann, Lisa Piven, Kate Lyon, Christina, Sarah David, Kate Beyer-Jone, Erin John, Joy Pollock, Crystal, Jennifer Pavelka, Jess Blackwell, widow, Micah, Jessica Reed, Beth Lippem, Kiara, Jill MacDonald, Jen Grimlin, Alexis Lane, David Binkley, pretty sure a widow, pretty sure a widow. Correct me if I’m wrong. Kathy Hamm, Virginia Labassi, Lizzie DeVries, Jeremy Essen, widow, Anna Brzezinski, Robin Roulard, Nicole Petey, Monica, Caroline Moss, my best friend, Rachel Walton, Inga, Bonnie Robinson, Shannon Dominguez-Stevens, Penny Pesta, God, I love that name, Kaylee, Dave Gilmore, and Jacqueline Ryder. Thank you so much, guys.

Remember, you are the special thing. You are the special thing. A few more credits. Episode produced by Marcel Malekibu. Video produced by Grace Berry, who also does everything else for us. Opening theme music by Joffrey Lamar Wilson. We’ll link his album in the show notes and closing credits and music you’re hearing right now by my young son Q. All right, we’ll see you. We’ll see you back here.