Should I Go Back to Work? with Kate Kennedy

Today, Nora and guest host Kate Kennedy discuss the least controversial topic ever: motherhood and work. When a listener wrote about the anxiety she was feeling ahead of her maternity leave ending, Nora knew it was time to talk about an experience that many mothers suffer in silence – what your life, career, and mental health look like after having a kid.

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

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Hi.

Hi.

Hi there.

Hi.

Hi.

Hey, Nora.

I’m Nora McInerny, and this is Thanks For Asking, a call-in show about what matters to you.

Okay, Kate Kennedy, thank you for being here this morning.

Thank you for having me.

We are going to talk about a topic that nobody has any feelings about, is not a lightning rod in any way, and contains no controversy in it, which is why I picked you.

Yeah, I almost backed out.

It’s too hard to talk about motherhood on the internet, publicly.

I can’t think of a worse topic on earth, because, and I have experienced this too, I’ve experienced it on both sides.

Both sides, both sides.

I’ve experienced the feeling of somebody saying something about motherhood that does not reflect my experience and me feeling as though it’s an attack on a choice I made.

And I’ve also experienced the feeling of simply just saying what my experience is and having someone else be like, no, no, no, because for me, for me, it feels like this.

So work and motherhood, double lightning rod, attracting all of the lightening.

I was asked these two questions and I said, I’m going to table these.

These are not for an Instagram story.

I got to phone a friend and that friend is Kate Kennedy.

Well, I’m honored, first of all.

It’s like I have a lot of strong feelings, but I also will kind of cancel them out in terms of their validity because my situation is so specific.

But I actually think that’s why we get so lit up, is because our situations are so specific, yet we’re made to feel like we should have ambiguous feelings, or unambiguous feelings about motherhood.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, and our situations are so specific and then they change so quickly.

I don’t know if you’ve experienced that yet.

Teddy’s a little over two, right?

Yes.

If things change so quickly, that I will feel like I have everything in control and I’m doing absolutely everything right, and then without notice, we are in a completely new part of the board game, and I don’t understand the rules, and now I have to rethink the way that everything is working, and the way I’m working.

My take on motherhood as a whole in its entirety, tip to tail.

When I had an eight month old, I was crushing this, not so bad.

What’s your problem?

I went on tour for three weeks.

He couldn’t move.

I know.

And he slept, and some people’s babies don’t sleep.

But now, I’m like, oh, I’m not a lifeguard anymore.

I don’t just watch him.

We got to engage.

He’s all up in my grill.

It’s just like a totally different situation that I feel so differently about.

And yeah, I think that’s why the hot takes are tough, frozen in time, because, yeah, we immortalize our feelings on our podcast, but it’s just like not how I feel anymore.

Yeah, I also remember the lump phase.

I was also blessed with what I know are easy babies.

Yeah.

They slept when they were supposed to sleep.

They ate when they were supposed to eat.

And it was still hard.

And also, I was like, I don’t know, like, you know.

Yeah.

If I’m having trouble with a baby that sleeps and eats, imagine, imagine.

Imagine.

Imagine, imagine.

But yeah, I worked while I was, I mean, this is not good, right, looking back.

But when Q was like two days old, I was in the studio recording a podcast because my podcast had not come out yet.

I knew from experience in the corporate world that when you come back from maternity leave, your job might not be the same.

Your career might not be the same.

It can be kind of a strange experience.

And I had this feeling, whether it’s fair or not to the organization, that I was tangentially related to.

And by that, I mean, was producing this podcast for me, that if they knew I was pregnant, they wouldn’t invest in the project as heavily, like marketing-wise, support-wise.

And I really thought of motherhood kind of as a weakness.

I think that the early parts of my career were marked by me saying, don’t worry, this is not gonna slow me down.

This, I keep this at home.

This is not gonna, don’t worry.

And I can’t lay all the blame at anybody’s feet, but allow me to at least lay some of it.

Lean In came out on my maternity leave with Ralph.

And I read it, zero critical thinking.

I said, yes.

I said, yes, my Lord, my Lord, being Sheryl Sandberg.

I ate it all up.

I said, this is perfect.

Obviously, obviously, obviously, this extremely wealthy woman’s life applies to me, a associate director level in corporate marketing.

Yeah, I got to just.

You’re bad at negotiating, Nora.

Be better.

Be better, be better.

Just like show up.

Oh, your husband is also dying?

Okay.

Well, guess what?

There’s like PowerPoints to write.

And I truly was like, hell yeah, girl.

I will get back in this pencil skirt.

After six weeks, I will drop this baby off at the corporate daycare.

I was out of my corporate office and I will lean the fuck in.

And that is what I did.

It will not land well amongst other listeners.

Ladies, smile.

Smile.

Talk less.

Would you mind just…

Smile more.

That’s not what I mean.

That’s exactly what she means.

Kate Kennedy wants you to smile.

Kate Kennedy says don’t stand up to sexism in the workplace.

This is why I almost backed out.

My camera’s not working in the cords.

Oh, no.

I mean, obviously parts of that book were helpful to me.

I think that I needed to not think too critically at that part of my life.

I really do.

I think like otherwise I probably would have had a full on mental breakdown and it was helpful to feel powerful coming back from work and to not dwell on…

I truly, I left Ralph at that daycare and I just remember being like, he’s small.

He was small when he was born.

He was…

It just felt…

I mean, I guess I took a full 12…

I took a full 12 week.

Only six of it was paid though.

That’s something that was not brought up.

That’s something that was not brought up in Lean In is…

He was 12 weeks old, so three months, and there was a baby there who was the minimum age that they would take at this daycare was six weeks.

And that baby was so little.

And I just remember they both started on the same day, just looking down and being like…

I know.

Also, you had corporate daycare.

That’s a win.

I mean, it was a different corporation.

Do you think that company still has that?

No, it was not.

They had built their corporate headquarters, and then another corporate daycare, like probably private equity run, chain daycare had opened up in the same parking lot, so that all those moms could stay at work.

And like this issue is really uniquely American.

And you were self-employed, though, when you became a mom.

I was, and I’m glad you have the perspective of going back to a corporate job, because I do think that is…

It’s a different situation, but like all situations have their upsides and downsides.

I just didn’t feel like I was in a position to go on maternity leave.

You know, self-employment is a weird constant hustle where you feel like a break means you’re forgotten.

A break also means you’re just not getting paid.

I tried to pre-record episodes with the end of my pregnancy.

I was very unwell.

I had preeclampsia.

I had no…

I couldn’t even speak.

I couldn’t…

My…

I was so out of breath.

And yeah, I was self-employed and that comes with its own set of weirdness, I think.

Did you feel when you went on your maternity leave as a self-employed person, like did you feel like you almost like couldn’t do it or like you had to justify it in a different way?

Couldn’t do the leave?

Yeah, I just couldn’t, the idea of just electing not to get paid was a bit overwhelming for me.

And I think I also, in going through such physical and emotional mental changes, I was almost like rushing and grasping at means of normalcy.

And I think like getting back to this podcast and not talking about motherhood was almost an attempt for me to strike balance, which is the ultimate lie, right?

Like no one’s ever going to achieve that.

And attempting to seek it, I think, makes us make decisions that we were just too hard on ourselves.

And I think I went back too quick.

I don’t think I took enough time off.

And I don’t actually, I wish I kind of let myself sit in and accept the changes instead of, yeah, be trying to oppose them.

Because your life does change and that’s okay.

Yeah.

And also, though, it’s like there’s, there is almost this strange pressure.

And I couldn’t identify, like, where it came from to not let motherhood change me or to almost act as though it hadn’t.

To kind of, like, be a little bit, like, unbothered about it, which is strange, you know?

And I felt that way when I went back from, like, my corporate maternity leave back to work.

Like, I couldn’t appear like I was, like, you know, like a mom.

Like, I had had a baby, but I really did feel like I should keep that part of me separate, aside from, you know, needing to, you know, try to, you know, get the one pumping room that was available at this office, you know, a few times a day, which sometimes would be filled with a man taking a phone call.

So…

I can’t.

People using family restrooms at airports.

Why I oughta…

Okay, we are going to, we’re gonna get to our questions.

The first one is from a newish mom, her maternity leave is about to end.

She said, I have so much anxiety about the end of my maternity leave.

Do you have any advice?

There’s, I think there’s so much that goes into that anxiety.

I’m curious if she isolated any of the…

Okay, and I didn’t ask any follow up questions.

Okay, I just got this in an Instagram question box.

Well, it’s like to validate that anxiety, it’s like, there’s so much, the logistics are impossible.

You’re kind of grieving a loss of time with your baby.

You kind of feel weird about wanting less time with your baby.

There’s guilt, there’s reevaluating your priorities.

I mean, there’s so much that you’re forced to reckon with while going through still a major life change, because if you do have leave, it’s probably not very long.

And even if it is, it’s still complicated.

Like, I think pregnancy, childbirth and postpartum was an interesting experience for me because I lived most of my life so in my head, and that forced me to live so in my body.

I wasn’t really, I wasn’t well, but I also wasn’t in my head, like, evaluating, like, how I was doing.

And I think that’s kind of the hard part of when it catches up to you and you haven’t been, yeah, able to take care of yourself in a way.

And I think, like, yeah, and compounded with anxiety of your maternity leave ending.

Like, I think, isn’t that the funny thing about time off or vacations or even when I get a massage?

I can’t enjoy most of it because once we get to it being closer to ending than starting, that’s all I’m thinking about.

Yeah.

And I’m thinking about, like, what I’m supposed to be doing next.

And also, like, did I enjoy this?

Yeah.

Did I enjoy this?

That’s me on every vacation.

But did I have a good time?

And Matt Lee is the farthest thing from a vacation, by the way.

The farthest thing from a vacation.

And yet, people will act like you were on a vacation and not on a, you know, a healing journey, while also a caregiving journey, while also a, you know, emotional and time management and physical management journey.

It’s not a journey at all.

You’re actually, for the most part, I was very, very much stuck in one place.

The advice that I got that I think was really helpful, I got it from another mom at work.

She said, don’t start on a Monday.

Don’t go back on a Monday.

Go back on a Wednesday.

Oh, that’s interesting.

I love advice like that.

That’s so specific.

It was so specific.

And I was like, that actually makes a lot of sense.

She was like, don’t do a full week to start.

Do a half week.

And like take your baby to daycare, but take your baby to daycare that full week, right?

And that was not convenient to me, like at all.

Well, that’s interesting too.

That’s really good specific advice.

Get used to the pickup, get used to the drop off, like that kind of stuff.

Get used to how much that might add to your commute, whatever that is.

Do that part and then add in work.

And then you’ll have three days of that, and it will be a little bit different once you’re doing both.

And then you can start your first week.

So that was actually very, very, very helpful advice to me, was don’t just go zero to 100 and expect it all to be the same.

I did feel that anxiety after I dropped him off, not even that first day, but as those days started adding up and I went back to work and my job was not the same.

I had a male colleague who was like my peer, who was suddenly doing all of the work.

Ralph was born in January, right?

So I’d done all this planning for the year 2013.

And I come back in March of 2013 and this guy is doing all my stuff, right?

And getting credit for it.

And I truly at that point, moved to a glorified assistant position, right?

It’s like everyone’s like, well, this is already happening, but you could take notes on it.

And I’m like, oof, okay.

You know, like I could just, I felt, I felt a difference in it, and whether that was perceived or real, but I felt a difference in my job, in the way that I was sort of like treated in that position.

And it, like it, it felt awful, but it also like made me, and this is like the lean in brain poison that I was also had just ingested too, made me kind of want to be like, okay, well then I’m just going to act as though nothing in my life has changed, right?

Like I’m gonna act as though like, it’s not a big deal.

Like, oh yeah, I can stay 15 minutes later.

I can say 30 minutes later.

I can say an hour later.

Yeah, you know, daycare doesn’t close for like another extra hour.

And oh, if I’m a little late, yeah, I get charged, you know, $15 for every five minutes that I’m late.

But like, no big deal.

Like, I can do this.

And every time I did that, I would also like go pick up my kid, get him in the car and just feel like kind of sick.

You know?

Yeah.

And I do think, Kate, like the reason that we didn’t want to really touch these questions and the reason this feels so, like, anxiety producing even to talk to is because we are in, there is no way to talk about motherhood and maternity leave or motherhood and work without pulling in, like, this economic and political context where like, well, I mean, should he even be working?

Like, what should a woman be doing with her time?

And we only have one generation of fully independent women, like one and a half generation of fully independent women.

Like, in the 1970s till the mid 1970s, a woman couldn’t get a mortgage or a credit card on her own.

And that was not that long before we were born.

So, yeah.

And I think also, like, part of that, too, is how frustrating it is.

It’s like, as if people in the situation, like, if you’re in a situation to choose, that’s hard enough.

But I also think that, like, the economic necessity of staying home or going to work, like dressed up in the language of choice can be really frustrating for people, too.

And it’s not always up to you.

And, like, I think that, like, yeah, acknowledging that reality is important.

And I think, yeah, I fear I’m not great with pointed advice.

And I love what you said about daycare and kind of transitioning one step at a time.

But the only other thing I would say that’s maybe not that helpful is, like, because sometimes it’s hard to remember it when you’re so deep in something, is that the extremity of that feeling of change, like, isn’t forever.

And you do start to feel more like yourself at one point.

And I think that’s a little bit different for everybody.

And I think also for me, like, part of what would drive me crazy is feeling like I was seeing other mothers, other parents, like, seem so certain about what they were doing, like, whether it was staying home or going to work or whatever.

And I think that, like, maternally ambivalence is such a real thing.

Like, I feel like we’re both, two things can be true, people, and it may be a way that’s obnoxious, but, like, literally two things can be true.

You can feel two ways, and it’s not a sign you’re a bad mother or a sign you’re making the wrong choice, because there are multiple valid paths to being a mother, and you’re not going to know how you feel about it until you pursue it.

And then to the point of things not being forever, I would also remind you that if you have the privilege of doing this, you can change your mind.

And the thing that’s making you anxious, if you go back and it’s not working and you have the ability to reassess, I think there’s an assumed permanence and heaviness and weight to every single choice we make.

And I think that a lot of times we have to adjust as we go.

And that might be the reality too.

But part of that anxiety can be the feeling of like, this is forever, that I will be stuck.

You know what I mean?

Oh, yeah.

And that’s such a good point too, because most of the things that I’ve ever been anxious about were temporary experiences.

And you don’t ever really know what something is until you’ve actually like gotten in there and done it.

And I actually felt this way, Kate, like before, as like literally right before I had Ralph, like we were going to the hospital.

I’m on my way to have a baby, okay?

I’ve determined finally after an entire day of just not feeling good on my baby’s due date, I was like, I just don’t feel good.

I do not feel good.

I wonder what this could be.

I wonder if I’m getting sick.

My tummy got in the hurts.

I wonder what it could be.

I watched season two of Homeland.

I was like, yeah, I just wonder what this could be.

I don’t know.

I’m like, oh, my stomach hurts.

Ooh, wow.

Ooh, good.

We gotta finish it though.

We gotta finish it.

Now I think I might be having a baby, but I gotta finish this episode because I can’t not know what happens.

Brody’s got a vest on.

I gotta know.

I gotta know.

What does that mean?

What does that mean?

And we’re driving to the hospital and I was like, oh, I don’t know if I wanna go.

Should we not go?

Let’s not go to the hospital.

Let’s go see a movie.

Let’s just do something else.

I just was like, I don’t know.

I don’t know if I wanna do this today.

Let’s just do something else today.

I don’t know if I wanna have a baby today.

Like, it’s just everything is scary until you do it and then you do it.

And maybe it is still scary.

Maybe it does still give you anxiety, but it’s like at least you have more information.

And I think that is the hard thing about parenting in general is like you only have the information that you have.

And you can read all of the books, you can try to map your life by all these expected milestones for yourself and for your baby, and still feel like, oh God, I don’t know what’s happening.

I don’t know if I am doing this right.

You’ve talked though a lot about matressence.

Yeah.

Which I think is a part of this conversation too.

Oh, for sure.

I think it’s so…

It needs to be talked about more because psychologically, scientifically, there’s a lot of really interesting literature about this that doesn’t get a lot of traction, where the two phases where women go through the most significant psychological, hormonal, and physical changes are adolescence and matressence.

In adolescence, you’re given the grace by society, and sometimes yourself, that it’s just, it’s awkward.

It’s widely coded as awkward.

But mothers are supposed to take on this new world swimmingly as if it’s what they were made for.

And a lot of things about motherhood do not feel normal, do not feel okay, do not feel like what I was made to do at all.

It actually feels like an outlier in my other ways.

In my other ways adult life where I feel like I know myself and I, you know, it’s like kind of this weird, I had a baby when I was turning 36.

Yeah.

And I remember thinking, go figure.

Like the second I really feel like I’ve settled in, I’m confident, I’m good at my job.

You know, all the, it’s almost like the awkwardness from my youth didn’t really fade until the age I decided to have a baby.

And then I was questioning everything again and relearning everything like, and that’s almost frustrating.

It’s almost like how why adults don’t take on new hobbies.

Like, I hate being bad at stuff.

And I kind of felt bad at being a mom because it took me a while to get used to it.

And yeah, I think matressence, just like remembering, it’s not like you and your head that needs to decide to feel one way about this or to be less anxious.

Quite literally, you’re going through changes that are inevitable, unpreventable, and just biologically there.

And sometimes that helps me be a little easier on myself, I think.

And I’m also really interested in matressence too, because I was very unsure about kids, and I kind of wrestled even aloud publicly with being on the fence on my podcast.

And I think because of that, I didn’t have a ton of like really set expectations about what it would be like.

Like I didn’t really dream of it.

I didn’t expect, I wasn’t around babies that much.

Like I didn’t know what to expect.

Part of me thinks that might have helped me out, because even when I gave birth, I wasn’t kind of coding it as, was this beautiful enough?

Was my suffering beautiful?

Was, did I have a good birth story?

Did I, I was kind of like, this is medically interesting.

I just was like kind of there as, because I saw it as medical.

I didn’t really see, I didn’t have a birth plan.

Like, and I’m not saying that’s the right way to be, but I think that like, matressence is kind of a similar thing where almost, not pathologizing it, but assigning a name and an experience to it, like adolescence, because no tween is trying to escape their turning into an adult, you know?

And I think there’s like a level of acceptance that helped me out with like, yeah, I’m gonna go through these changes and it’s not forever, but I also can’t do anything about it.

So I’m not gonna beat myself up about, yeah, just going through something major.

Yeah, isn’t it wild though?

It’s like three months after you have a baby, like that hormonal transition is not even close to being done.

No.

And then you just kind of have to, you know, slip back into your pencil skirt, go make a PowerPoint and kind of like pretend like it is.

And like, of course that would be anxiety inducing.

Like, of course, there would be difficulties in there that you couldn’t possibly predict, you know?

Like…

I’m sorry, could we also talk about that?

Do you, when you went, when you were in the corporate world is amazing because you’ve brought up pencil skirts twice now.

Do you know people still wearing pencil skirts?

I hope they are.

Especially after giving birth, wouldn’t you dare?

They’re coming back, baby.

I don’t know if you’ve seen Current J Crew.

The 2010s are back.

We did not, the trend cycle is cycling so quickly.

They were like, bubble necklaces are back, Kate.

And we, I did a bad thing when I donated mine in 2021.

I should have said, these are coming back.

These are coming back.

We’re talking statement necklaces.

We’re talking pencil skirts.

We’re talking jewel-tone blouses.

Everything is back, okay?

And I was, the one thing I really, really enjoyed about the corporate world was getting dressed in a way that misrepresented the work that I was going to do and my level of importance.

Oh, I think my favorite genre of fashion is like, yeah, the business woman.

Like, I remember being at Limited too and thinking I couldn’t wear to wait to wear clothes from the Limited.

There’s something costumey about a pencil skirt and a blazer that is forcing me to act more feminine than I am and masculine at the same time.

It’s asking me to act as though I know what a stakeholder is, because for a long time, I did not know.

I was like, stakeholder.

Dividends.

I think that…

I’m supposed to be like, include all the stakeholders, and I’d be like…

And just so…

So who, from your perspective, who is that?

Yeah.

No, it also is two gals with a fair…

I don’t know what it was.

What’s a leg wingspan called?

You know, if you’re tall and you got long legs and you walk fast, there’s no straight jacket for the thighs, quite like a pencil skirt, where I’m like, am I scuttling?

You are, me and a pencil skirt.

It makes you a clacker, like at Elias Clarke and the Devil Wears Prada.

You gotta clack quickly if you’re a lady, so they know you’re coming.

So many accessories, oh, that was a beautiful time.

That was a beautiful time to be going back on maternity leave, I gotta say.

Just physically, I really did look good.

Okay, and that’s what mattered.

I know, the idea of a pencil skirt.

After a maternity leave is perhaps the most mind-blowing like societal expectation or fashion expectation I could think of because it sounds so unrealistic to me, but you probably did what you could to make it work because it felt like an important part of your corporate identity.

And I think that like, yeah, I wish I could help relieve someone’s anxiety.

And I will also say too, I think we don’t always talk about what’s a normal and expected level of anxiety.

And what’s a quite paralyzing level of anxiety that I think it’s very important to check in with somebody and to get help for and to be mindful that like not every extreme you feel as a mother, new mother, pregnant person is normal.

Like, and while I want to validate that being anxious is normal, I also want to encourage you to identify some boundaries for what is normal for you and to be just careful of not letting that get to a place where you’re convincing yourself to not talk to anybody, to not get help because I think that can be a problem too.

Like, toward the end of my pregnancy, I was quite sick and it was quite dangerous, but I didn’t know what was normal.

And like everybody says pregnancy is miserable.

Everybody says postpartum is miserable, but like how miserable?

You know, that was always my question.

Yeah, yeah.

How miserable?

How miserable should I feel?

How anxious should I feel?

How depressed should I feel?

How much should I just be like bursting into tears randomly in the middle of the day?

And I think the casual nature of like baby blues is a bit tricky.

Yeah, that’s true.

That’s true.

Yeah, how are baby blues explained to you?

Like, it’s normal to be like, what did I just do?

Why did I blow up my life?

Yeah.

I’m like, okey-doke.

Well, okay.

It’s normal to feel like, you know, look at this beautiful child that you, you know, prayed for, you know, just the miracle of human existence and think, ah.

Right.

Not for me.

Yeah.

Return policy?

Not like I want to.

I’m just saying, like, what would, do I have options?

I just, oh, God.

Should I have done this?

Right?

Like, right.

And also, I will say, I think the smartest thing anybody has said this morning is, like, all of it’s temporary.

Like, you really only ever have to do something for the first time once, even if you have multiple children, right?

Like, you’ll only ever do this version of, like, ending your maternity leave once with this, like, one child.

And especially if this is, like, your first child, I think that we’re not very comfortable with acknowledging, like, we’re new at something.

Like, we’re really new at it.

Like, you’ve had a job, now you’ve had a baby.

You’ve never had a job and a baby together.

You’ve never had to do this.

Like, it’s okay if it’s not perfect.

It’s okay if, you know, if, like, you have, like, some level of regret over something.

I don’t know, I just, I feel almost lucky, too, that, you know, 2013, yes, there was social media.

Yes, there was Pinterest.

Yes, I still felt like I had a lot of inputs into what motherhood should look like, but nothing compared to what it is now.

Like, you know, I was not, I was not following, you know, parenting influencers, you know, motherhood influencers.

Like, I wasn’t, you know, seeing, like, come with me to drop my baby off at daycare before I get back to the corporate world.

Like, I wasn’t seeing those kinds of things.

I was really just seeing my own friends’ experiences.

And guess what?

Everybody that I knew in 2013, we were all going back to work.

Like, I did not know anybody, I didn’t know anybody, period.

That’s not true, now I remembered somebody.

Okay, I only knew one person who stayed home with their baby after having a baby in 2013.

Like, that was my social circle, was women getting back to work.

And that was, as you pointed out, Kate, like, it was a choice sort of, it was like a necessity.

Like, none of us, you know, in our early 30s were in a place where there really was any other conversation to have other than, well, we want a family and we are also, you know, kind of at that point in our careers where, like, things are starting to, like, really take off.

And you have talked about this too, like the sort of cruelty of just biology and economic growth kind of, like, converging at, like, the least convenient time for a woman.

Oh, I mean, the fact that, like, right when I became the age where, like, you know, throughout history, they’ve identified you’re qualified enough to be leader of the free world at 35.

It’s also when my fertility was declining.

Like, I think that represents, like, how self-actualized and confident, like, how many people in their mid-30s feel like they’re finally getting it.

And then, like, yeah, everything kind of gets flipped upside down.

And the inverse nature of your careers rise and your fertility’s decline is, yeah, I think something wildly cruel about biology that drove me absolutely crazy.

And I think it’s okay if that’s the case.

Like, it’s just one of those things there’s not, like, a solution to it.

It just sucks.

And you have to, like, make choices.

And I think, yeah.

Well, too, also, I was gonna ask you, because your body of work being, like, so helpful to people about grief, I don’t always think we frame it this way, but I think there’s an element of, like, grieving your own old life that has to do with the postpartum period that people maybe don’t always take seriously as if it’s grief.

But it is, because there’s, it’s, you know, not, I don’t say this to scare anybody, but like, it’s a permanent change, quite literally.

So you would, you kind of grieve the former situation as such at times.

And I think that, yeah, I don’t know what advice you would give in that context, because I was going to ask you, well, is it frustrating in a situation involving grief?

If people are like, this is temporary, you’re not always going to feel this bad, because it’s like, well, I do, so I don’t really know how future me is going to coach me through this.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, I would never say like, well, you know, it’s not going to feel like this forever.

So like, well, don’t worry about it.

It’s like, it feels like this now.

And I think about that with things that feel good too, as we establish right now, I’ll be getting a massage, well, this isn’t forever.

But in serious situations that does help me almost like appreciate the moment for what it is, even when the moment is really hard, really horrible, you know, really awful, or when it’s like really joyful, I feel like I can feel that a little bit deeper, just knowing like, oh my god, it’s not always going to be this.

Something else is always coming, like something else is always on the way.

And I don’t know, it is just such a hard time.

We don’t have, the TL didn’t listen to all of this.

It’s like for this person who’s anxious about going, you know, back to work at the end of maternity leave, is basically like, mm-hmm, yeah.

Yeah, yep.

I don’t know if this is too granular if you want to take this out, but can I just say that my postpartum experience drastically improved when I stopped breastfeeding.

Like I think that women have to like also, like yes, it sucks.

And if as much as you can evaluate the parts of it that are most draining and difficult for you, and if there’s any adjustments that can be made, do them.

Like, I think that it was an interesting experience I had is I got hospitalized again after I gave birth.

And my husband was alone with the baby the first five days of his life.

And I didn’t set up, I didn’t like steam the bottles or like set up any of the appliances.

So like, I think it was an interesting experience for me because I think I do have a tendency to be like, I’ll just do it, I’ll just do it, I’ll just do it.

Not that he doesn’t want to contribute, but that like, if I’m more familiar with something, whatever.

It kind of forced our household to have him be like so fully capable of being an equal provider that actually while I was healing, he was the main caregiver for probably the first like six to eight weeks, honestly, because I remember a doula telling me like your new job is being a mother, but your equally important job is healing and like treat it as such, take it as seriously as taking care of your baby, take care of yourself just as seriously.

And I think in my partner doing that, sometimes I feel guilty when I say parts of it for me were much smoother than I expected.

But if I’m honest, I think that some of the things that went into that are adjustments that I had to make in order, I was forced to make physically because there were things I couldn’t do.

And then when I was like, I’ve had enough, I’ve been through enough breastfeeding, it was the thing that was draining and the reason I couldn’t get a full night’s sleep.

And the reason I was waking up.

And I don’t know, that was the right choice for me.

It might not be for another person.

But yeah, it’s interesting to see what levers really change things and what is just is what it is, you know?

Yeah.

I would say that mine got better when I stopped cloth diapering.

Nora McInerny.

I was in a weird place, I was in a weird place, okay?

He was so small, it didn’t work, they leaked over, everything was disgusting.

I was like, I’m not doing this, like this is so stupid.

And I was only doing it because a woman I knew, who I perceived as better than me was doing it.

And I was like, what am I doing?

I don’t want to do this.

I don’t want to do this.

I will let chemicals touch my baby.

I was also in a very weird place because my husband had cancer.

So I was very pre-Maha.

You know, like no, nothing, no, no carcinogens can ever touch my baby.

The world is a carcinogen, it turns out.

Yeah, giving that up, that improved my life drastically.

You know what else improved my life drastically, Kate?

This is, someone’s gonna hate me for this one.

I never heated up a bottle.

Yeah, I didn’t do that for that long because I didn’t notice a difference in terms of, I guess some babies have, it’s comfort, discomfort, gas or not, I’m not sure.

I don’t know.

I shook it up, shook up that breast milk from the fridge, popped it in his mouth.

Like enjoy a cold glass of milk.

Like, you know, enjoy it.

I don’t want room temperature milk.

You don’t want room temperature milk, okay?

Like not nursing did make my life worse, I will say, because that was one thing that my body was like amazing at.

Like I was like just, it was-

Okay, that’s so interesting.

Yeah, it was, not nursing was the worst.

Cause like I’m like generally lazy.

So just being like, there you go.

Like what’s the easiest thing for me?

No bottle to wash, nothing to pack really, like I BYOB’d, they’re right here.

Literally every choice and circumstance has upsides, downsides, and sideways.

The lesson here is, don’t be afraid to abandon your convictions.

I think we all have very hot takes going into being new mothers about what is right, wrong, what we’ll do, what kind of mother we’ll be.

And I just, everything I, yeah, it’s an experience you can’t adequately anticipate.

I’d also say there was a lot of joy I wasn’t prepared for.

It’s going to be a lot of both.

And I think that I remember too, like I was three weeks postpartum and I needed to get out of the house and I needed to feel like myself so badly.

And I think I was still in a diaper.

And I went to a Jonas Brothers concert, just popped on over to Wrigley Field, went to a JoBros concert.

I remember people in my DMs telling me I was a bad example for women.

And I remember thinking, I’m an example for nobody but myself, and I wanted to hear the song Waffle House in person, because at that point in time, I thought it might be a classic.

It wasn’t, it wasn’t, but I’m glad I went.

You are a bad example for women.

I say that about you all the time.

Anytime someone brings up Kate Kennedy, I say the woman who went to a Jonas Brothers concert when she was three weeks postpartum, her?

Yeah.

Is that what you mean?

Jen Affleck is dancing with the stars.

I mean, we do what we can.

We do what we can.

With the circumstances for him.

We do what we can.

So yeah.

So hopefully that helped nobody, okay?

Because now we’re going to get into the controversial question, Kate.

And this one is a do.

So I got a DM that said, I’m on maternity leave with my second child.

My job is uninspiring.

I don’t really want to go back.

What should I do?

And I said, will you tell me a little bit more?

And she said, 4 a.m., wake up with the baby gave me a chance to write some of this down.

My career has always been something important to me and something I’ve wanted to continue to build.

I’m nine years deep into a career in public service, which is something I’m so proud of.

It’s always been very fulfilling work, and I’ve truly felt that the work I’m doing matters and I’m making an impact on this world.

Until now.

About a year ago, we had a change in administration at work, and suddenly I’m just frustrated all the time, and I feel stifled and like the value I used to bring to work has diminished.

Okay, not the end of the world, maybe just time to get a new job.

Everybody switched jobs.

But compound that with the arrival of baby number two, and I’m suddenly thinking, what if I just don’t get another job?

What if I stayed home and was just a mom to my kids?

Can I even do that?

This is literally something I never even considered before.

There’s no question I would go back to work after I had my first baby.

I loved my job, but now I don’t.

And I think the reality of just how spread thin I and my husband have been managing two full-time jobs, shuttling back and forth to daycare, managing the house, the dog, putting dinner on the table, etc.

has me questioning if the solution to a better life is not a new fulfilling career, but maybe no career at all.

So maybe I just take some time off, not forever, maybe just a year or two or a couple more.

How long can I reasonably not be working before all I built up so far becomes irrelevant to the job market for future career prospects?

Obviously, money is a concern.

Husband and I have always been comfortable and we could get by on one salary, but we would need to be stricter on budget and make some cuts.

What if we don’t want to live that way?

Well, I regret not being able to give my kids the extras they currently have because I chose to stay home.

Husband and I have generally been equal in terms of earnings and responsibilities in parenting and duties around the house, and this would obviously shift drastically if I was a stay-at-home mom.

Just concerned for how this will affect our relationship.

I don’t want either of us to resent each other.

But just writing this out has made me feel better.

That is so many moving parts.

So many moving parts.

How could you ever be tasked with feeling unambiguously certain about what you should or shouldn’t do, for one?

I have some thoughts, but do you have an overwhelming gut feeling or response to this?

I tracked emotionally through this whole thing.

And this is where I want to say that one of the best things about Kate Kennedy, as a thinker, as a person, is I think one of your main philosophies is like, just be ready to change your mind, right?

Be like willing to change your mind.

Whatever you feel right now, like you can change your mind when you get more information, different information, when you have the information of feeling and living through something.

I have felt all of those things, not when the kids were babies, but I would say, like, in the past three years, right?

I think especially as, you know, we have a blended family, so the big kids are big kids, now they’re adults now, right?

Like, Ian’s 24, Sophie is 19, Ralph is 12, Q is 8 now.

I would say something about Ralph entering middle school, which here, where we live, is the fifth grade.

Don’t get me started on that.

Not okay.

Something about that, I felt all of these things, like, what am I doing?

Like, why am I doing all of this?

Like, shouldn’t I just be, like, here with them?

Not because, like, my work isn’t fulfilling, but also just because I feel like time has just moved so fast, and now I just kind of, like, blink, and two kids are out of the house, two kids will be out of the house.

I am an excellent future tripper.

I love to do that, right?

I love to, you know, I get such anxiety.

When I see a post on Instagram, Kate, that says only 12 Sundays till Christmas, I think, great, I missed Christmas.

I hate those things.

When I see posts, we just get 18 summers with our kids.

Okay, well, you know what?

We just had a 24th summer with Ian.

So I beg to differ.

And yet I’m like, oh, that’s true.

That’s true.

Anything I see, I go, that’s true.

That’s so true.

That’s so true, right?

Someone says, wow, like, it’s so great to have a fulfilling job that does something for you, you know, emotionally and gives you purpose in this world.

That’s so true.

God, the most important thing that you could ever do is, you know, be home and raise your children.

That’s so true.

Man, women can’t have it all.

That’s so true.

Women can have it all.

That’s so true.

Right, right.

It’s all true.

And I think, I know.

And like, I also just, a small piece of advice I have for mothers is, like, don’t listen to country music.

And if you hear you’re gonna miss this in your head, remember Trace Atkins also wrote Honky Donk, Badonkadonk, and we cannot take him seriously.

My other piece of advice would be, I am very change-your-mind-oriented.

I’m very, but also I’m very like youngest child, follow your dream.

Like, I don’t know, sometimes my advice is really genuinely bad and impractical.

But I think that, I actually, for this decision, I would pause at saying, don’t worry, you can change your mind.

Because the reality is, leaving a career is easier than re-entering.

And you have to ask yourself hard questions when you’re making such a serious choice.

It’s not breezy.

You can, I want to validate the uncertainty in that there’s never going to be a fundamentally right answer.

But per the conversation about stakeholders, I feel like with situations that are very split, you can get yourself to 51% or more one way.

And I think you have to run the numbers on your income.

I think you’d have to talk to women who made this choice several years ago.

Ask yourself about your support system.

You know, like, I think that if there’s anything I’ve learned from having, in a different context, drastic career choices and feeling like I regretted them or not, the thing I’m always asking myself is, am I running toward this thing or am I running away from this other thing?

Can you ask yourself, are you leaning toward staying at home and being with your kids and that being more of your role, or are you running away from a job you don’t like, a career that’s no longer satisfying, so on and so forth?

And I don’t know, yeah, I don’t know if that’s bad advice or not, but like, I think it’s important to, yeah, be honest with yourself and kind of, I don’t know, examine your motivation a bit more.

Like, I believe in validating situations that just are hard, but I also believe in exploring your uncertainty and seeing what the kind of root cause of it is and how that relates to the choice you’re making.

Here’s something that I want everybody to consider.

This is something that I want to, you know, I want girls to consider when they are on TikTok and they see women saying like, this is a day in the life of a stay-at-home girlfriend.

This is a day in life of a stay-at-home wife, you know, who doesn’t have kids, or a stay-at-home mom, whatever it is.

Like one, if somebody is posting content, they are working, right?

Especially if they’re monetizing that content, they’re working, that’s a job.

So yes, they’re at home, and they are a work-at-home fill in the blank.

Second, is that that is and always has been labor, right?

To be a stay-at-home mom, to be a stay-at-home dad, to be a stay-at-home parent is labor.

It is valued at, oh, I should have looked this up, but I believe it’s valued at like, you know, the value of having somebody to stay home with your kids, you know, clean your house, make your food, do your grocery shopping is like $200,000 a year, right?

Like that is, it is a lot of labor.

It is a lot of work.

And there is a real cost to it as a woman.

The, like you mentioned, like the off-ramp is easier than the on-ramp.

And you are not just missing out on like, whatever your income is.

And I know, you know, a not insignificant number of women for whom work, you know, whatever they made in their salary would basically just be going to daycare, to child care, to whatever it was.

Funny enough, like that equation never applied to the husband.

Right.

Isn’t that crazy?

Isn’t that crazy?

Isn’t that crazy?

That never came up.

That never came up.

But you’re not just missing out on that income, you’re missing out on, you know, the compound interest of having a retirement of like any semblance of financial independence.

And that’s fine when things are going well.

When things are going well, you value your partner, your partner values you.

I have seen many marriages end, and even marriages that end in a way that you would not think would be contentious.

You will see an instant change, or you can see an instant change in the way that that labor is valued.

These same women who believed, and were also told that this is the highest calling that a woman can have.

Oh my God, this is so valuable.

Thank you for doing this.

Are now, when the marriage is over, now they’re freeloaders.

Okay?

Now what they did was they latched on to a man, and they bled him dry.

And I’m sorry, you don’t deserve anything more than just like the basics of child support.

You think you deserve spousal support to do what?

You’re not married to me.

And that is not something anybody wants to think about when things are good.

It’s not.

And that is absolutely when you should be thinking about these things and when you should be talking about them.

That should be, I would say, the first part of this conversation is not like, can we afford to do it now?

Can I afford to do it in the future?

And I am a big proponent for, and literally no one wants to think or talk about this, I’m a proponent of a post-nup in these situations.

I really am.

I think the most important thing that you can do as a woman financially is to get it in writing.

Get it all in writing.

And if you are, like my husband, a man who’s gonna stay at home with the kids, get it in writing.

Get it in writing.

Because Matthew decided, we decided as a family, right?

Like something has got to give.

This is 2019.

It’s the summer of 2019.

Kate, you knew me.

My life had never been better.

Maybe you didn’t know me.

I don’t know how long we’ve known each other.

No, I did.

Yeah, I did.

Yeah, we did.

Yes, we did.

You knew me, okay?

My career had never been better, okay?

Podcasting was on the up, up, and up, all right?

We were all.

So never change.

But it’ll never change, okay?

Podcasting is on the up, up, and up.

Do I own the show?

No, but I’m getting paid at least now a little more, and I am doing speaking events, and I am working on a TV show, and I’ve sold a script based on my first book, and everything’s coming up, Nora.

I’ve got so much to do.

I’m on the go.

I’ve got a non-profit.

I’ve got a widow’s group.

I am busy every single day in a million different ways.

I’m writing a second and third book at the exact same time.

Matthew is working at an architecture firm.

It is a high-pressure job, and we don’t see each other a lot at this point.

We’ve been married maybe five minutes.

Our life sounded a lot like what this woman is describing, which is, I call it relay race parenting, where it’s like, you’re gonna go, you’ll take Ian to soccer.

I’ll pick him up.

And on the way home, I’ll grab dinner.

I’ll grab Sophie from this.

You pick the little kids up from daycare.

We’ll meet here.

Then you take Sophie to soccer.

I’ll feed the little kids.

I’ll get them made and put to bed.

Everything was just constant pieces moving on the board and exhausting.

When things got too much, I was like, okay, we’re going to have our groceries delivered.

So that’s one thing off our list.

Now someone’s going to clean our house.

Now, I’ve got to commute because you can’t record a podcast at home.

I don’t think you were aware of this back in 2019, Kate.

It can’t be done.

You have to go into a studio.

It has to be on the other side of town.

Now, that sometimes interferes, like drop off.

What if I get a morning nanny and an afternoon nanny who can pick up and drop off the kid?

And then what are we doing?

What part of our lives are we actually doing was the conversation?

Like, what are we doing?

We never actually got those nannies because I was like, what are we doing?

I ran into Matthew at the airport once and I was like, what?

Your husband?

Yeah, I came back.

I was coming back.

He was in the air.

I was like, what are you doing?

He was like, remember, I’m going here.

I was like, who’s with the kids?

He’s like, oh, my mom’s with them now, but your mom is going to be there.

I was like, okay.

I get home, I’m like, what is happening?

And at that time, I had all these different forms of income and I was like, I can replace your income this year.

I can do that.

Do you want to take the summer of Maddie?

And that’s how we pitched it, right?

Summer of Maddie.

You’re going to take a summer off.

You’ve been working to support a family for 17 years at this point, right?

So why don’t you take the summer off?

So he takes the summer off, right?

It’s like a big deal.

Like, I don’t think anybody at his work sees this coming.

Certainly his friends and family don’t see this coming.

Like, it’s like, you know, could he return back or he just had to quit his job?

He just quit.

He just quit, right?

And like, you know, I think there were conversations like, you know, let us know if you change your mind, right?

And I think that was also like, maybe even his, like, point of view, too, was like, I’m just going to take a summer and then, like, we’ll regroup.

Like, we’ll see, like, kind of how it feels.

Best summer of his life, right?

Like, they’re going to the pool every day.

It’s like, some people are really meant for this life.

Both of my husbands were.

Like, second date with Erin, he was like, look, if we have kids, like, I want to stay home.

And I was like, hell yeah, you do that.

That sounds great.

You know, Matthew loves to pack a lunch.

He’s so good at that.

He’s great at laundry.

Like, he was just so relaxed.

Everyone was like, tan and happy.

He stays home.

Like, let’s extend this a little bit.

COVID happens.

Okay.

Now he’s teaching first grade, preschool, you know, high school, Ian can’t go to college.

It’s like, it just, all these things happened, and now it’s been six years, you know?

And like, the kids are a little bit older, and you know, now he’s got to kind of think about like, what could this next phase be?

Like, what will it be?

Like, what will it be?

And I will say like, one, it’s been really good for our family.

It has been really, really good.

I cannot deny that.

It’s been so good to have one person locked in at home.

He’s taken him to the doctor today.

I don’t know their pediatrician’s name.

Okay.

I had a camp drop off.

And they’re like, and where does he go to a pediatrician?

I was like, I’ll be right back.

I’m going to, I have to take this phone call.

Who’s his pediatrician?

And they’ll probably be like classic dad.

But as the mom, there’s also like a added layer of weirdness with how people respond to that.

Yeah.

And I have to be like, it’s not my job to know that.

So I actually don’t.

Okay.

Yeah.

I am.

I’m a classic dad.

And you know what, Kate?

Like, this is what our grandfathers had.

This is the benefit that men have had for ever, is having somebody at home to take care of life so that they can go write the next great American novel or make the next great American podcast.

I mean, there’s so much I’ve done.

I’ve really just shaken up the world.

Nobody will ever forget my name.

But this is, or in my grandpa’s case, run an oxygen distribution business.

Be a plumber, okay?

With someone at home, raising your nine GD kids, okay?

Like this is the benefit that men have had forever.

So to have it is wonderful.

It’s a karmic rebalancing.

And, and like it comes with a cost, right?

It comes with a cost.

Matthew can’t reenter the workforce at that level.

Like Matthew can’t go back to architecture at that level.

Like he just, he just won’t be able to, right?

And he still has the contacts.

He still knows people, but like it just, I don’t think it would be possible.

Like, you know, I just don’t think it would be.

I don’t know if he wants to go back to that same career.

And, you know, he did miss out on that sort of like, you know, the retirement income and all of that.

And all of that is codified for us in writing, right?

Like, what I put into Matthew’s individual retirement, like the monetary value of his, like, stay-at-home, like, labor.

So, and I did that for a reason, because I’ve watched so many women get absolutely screwed by their husbands when they no longer want to be married.

And because I knew that the best time to have those conversations would be while we’re in love, while we respect each other, and while I value the work that he is doing for our family.

So, if worse comes to worse, if Matthew no longer wants to be married to me, if I no longer want to be married to him, I can’t be an asshole.

You know what I mean?

Like, I can’t.

Because we already agreed, we already signed something, and it is all written out.

Like, so he has, like, his own money still, he has his own retirement still.

And that was important to me, because I never want him to feel as though he is sort of trapped in this role, the way that I do know many women throughout history have been trapped in this role.

And I’m not saying that is not like, I’m actually saying this is such valuable work.

This is, you know, it’s so important that that is important to me.

Like, right, it can’t just be a handshake deal.

It has to be a written out deal.

And what I think that is, what I think is often missing from these conversations online is like, marriage can certainly be romantic.

But, you know, my dad always said, if you want romance, watch a movie, read a book, okay?

Because marriage is partnership.

And to me, like, marriage is, I mean, it’s mostly been like a strategic partnership, you know?

Like, it is, it is, it is, it is synergy.

Like, why do people get married, historically?

To, you know, expand or consolidate power structures.

We no longer have to do that, for the most part, but, like, you are marrying somebody, you are, like, tying, you’re yoking yourselves to one another.

Like, it is, it is a legal agreement.

No, the legal ramifications of marriage in the state that you live in, because they vary.

Like, you are signing, you are signing a business contract when you get married.

And if you stay home with your kids, that arrangement is changing, and that should also be legally documented.

That’s the most important thing I have to say.

That’s the most important thing I have to say.

I can’t tell you if it’s the right choice for you.

Just whatever choice you make, make sure that it is valued and in writing.

Yeah, that’s really good advice, Nora.

I, you know, it’s like some questions about motherhood and, like, you know, working, not working, feel a bit emotional and existential.

Some of them are quite practical.

And step one of valuing the labor for what it is, which is labor, which is its own type of employment, is treating it as such, like, contractually, like it’s like any other job.

And I feel like I, that didn’t even come to my mind, because, like, I’ve never, but it’s such a good point.

And something I don’t think is talked about enough, per, it not coming to mind.

And I’m glad you shared that.

And I think, too, like, the, I feel like all the marital advice I ever see is, like, do everything in your power to avoid, like, resentment and contempt.

Like, those are the two emotions you can’t come back from.

And I think, too, like, yeah, because I can’t speak to the legal or contractual piece.

It’s like, I don’t know, just, like, the importance of, like, making sure your partner values the labor, if that is the direction you go in.

Also, just, like, checking in.

Like, don’t, not being, like, a martyr or, like, too sacrificial, or just, like, recognizing, like, what is and isn’t working.

And I don’t know.

I think that, like, to your point, you know, if Matthew finds satisfaction out of packing a lunch, or, like, you know, he enjoys going to the pool, he…

Like, I do think certain personality types lend themselves better to different types of jobs and roles where you can find identity.

And, like, that’s, that matters, too, I think.

Like, if you feel like you’re slogging through, or if you feel like this is something that…

Like, no matter what, a lot of, like, domestic labor is a drag.

But, like, I don’t know, sometimes I don’t feel like a lot of mom guilt for working, because I actually think my child’s life is so enriched by a person whose, like, vocation it is to spend time with children in their early development.

Like, I actually don’t think I’m the right person for that.

And I think that, like, yeah, just kind of being very honest with yourself about what makes you tick, what types of things you like.

I actually remember, like, when I had a newborn, something I liked about it was, like, I never feel accomplished in my job, or, like, I have a clear set of things to do, and then I’m, like, done for the day.

But how, like, procedural, the dutiful nature of taking care of a baby was, it was, like, change, eat, sleep.

And I was, like, at the end of the day, I was, like, hell yeah, I crushed this.

Toddler, different story.

Not crushing it.

I don’t know.

That’s kind of abstract.

But I would just only add that to, like, there’s no, some people really like doing certain things, and there’s no shame to it if you do or don’t like it.

And some people are better at things than others.

And you’ve always talked about how Matthew’s better than you at a lot of these things.

And I think, yeah, talking to people transparently about your setup is probably tremendously helpful to people, because I don’t think we always allow ourselves to take these things as seriously as they should be taken.

Because, yeah, I think that the monetary value is really interesting, too, that you brought up.

Yeah, it’s like I’m not, you know, I’m not making money the way that I was a few years ago either.

And, like, you can adjust, right?

Like, you know, people are like hermit crabs, right?

Like, you expand into, like, the space that you have to fill.

Like, you can kind of, like, make anything work to a degree.

And I can’t remember where I was going with that other, I just, you know what, as soon as I said hermit crabs, I was mentally in that Instagram feed.

I followed this girl who’s, like, a hermit crab influencer on Instagram.

And, uh…

Yeah, I love a hermit crab influencer.

She’s, like, a hot girl who loves hermit crabs, and I love that.

Like, I love when a just traditionally beautiful girl is like, what can I do with my platform?

What can I do with this hermit crabs?

I love it.

The hermit crab industrial complex for parents that don’t want to get pets is an important one.

It is.

I had hermit crabs.

They were so gross.

They smelled.

I was like, they love me.

They don’t love you.

Mine did not love me, I should say.

I think this girl believes her hermit crabs love her, and I think that’s great.

Mine…

It was not…

It was not a mutual…

It was not a mutual relationship.

In that…

Wait, I was talking about…

Okay.

Oh, things change.

Circumstances change.

Do, do, do.

You can grow to fill the space.

Yeah.

Bup, bup, bup, bup, bup.

I was thinking about something.

She said like, will I regret not being able to give the kids extras?

Will I, like…

Oh, yeah.

Maybe we should loop back to, like, the layers of this question, because I’m, like, forgetting.

The layers of this question.

Here’s one.

Every decision you make is a financial adjustment.

And I think that we feel an immense amount of pressure to be fulfilled by everything, you know, to feel so good about every sphere of our lives.

Like, you know, I just…

Everything with motherhood is growing great.

My marriage is going great.

My work is going great.

And I think if your work is not fulfilling, I think we have to normalize phoning it in and giving it only what it requires of you and not a moment more.

Not a moment more, like, phone it in.

Do the bare minimum of your job for as long as you can.

Bank that money and find, like, fulfillment where you actually get it.

Like, with the time that you have with your kids, with the time that you have with your friends, with actually pursuing your interests.

And I also recognize that this is harder than ever because we are at this point in history where the wealth gap has never been wider, where it has never been just so difficult to kind of keep your head above water, and it’s all so scary and so exhausting.

And the more exhausted we are, the more we have to sort of rely on these things that are allegedly convenient but also take away our ability to connect with the world around us.

Every convenience-based app really does that.

And some people love having their groceries delivered.

I’m not knocking that.

But when everything that I was doing was sort of meant to optimize my life, I was never more disconnected from my life.

And I just don’t think you have to give everything in your life 100%.

And I actually think it’s…

The more that we think about that, it might be impossible.

You know?

Might not be possible.

Sure.

I actually think that the one whale give credit to motherhood is like, I think if you’re a person that cares so deeply, whether it’s about your work itself or cares deeply about just generally doing a good job.

I think some of us just really care about doing a good job at whatever it is.

And I have to be physically removed from something to care less.

Like, whenever the answer is like, you know, just try to care a little bit less.

Like, you can quit your job or just care less about it.

I was always like, I can’t, like, I just, I’m making my own problem kind of.

Motherhood actually was the catalyst that forced me to care a little less about work for the better.

And as a self-employed person, it feels impossible to do that.

And a lot of my fears were about, like, not being able to perform or work at the level I was.

And guess what?

I’m not.

I don’t.

And it’s also okay.

Like, it also helped.

Like, if this person’s also anxious about returning back to work because of how much of your being it consumes, I relate to that.

And it consumes a little less of my being.

And I think that that’s took some time to accept, but it’s also a positive thing.

And to care less is kind of a gift about just our, like, yeah, fullest contribution to this.

Well, she’s in public service, so it’s different.

It’s kind of like, so whatever your job is, is there any way you could finagle trying it out temporarily before it’s permanently?

And the answer is probably no.

I am going to Google after this why professors get sabbaticals and like, you know, I’m interested in like why some fields of work do that and others don’t because most absolutely don’t.

I think we’d all be better off for it.

But also, if you can’t do that, yeah, it’s like, you’re never, there’s no like 100 percent like right decision for you and getting as close as you can to feeling better about one side of it, I think is all you can do with the information you have.

And I think, yeah, it’s just, it’s going to be like really different for everybody.

But totally, when we’re mostly asking like questions that are more existential and about identity, like that, that makes it like, it’s like you just don’t, you don’t know.

Like, and maybe we don’t have to assign value to like everything we do and like what our job is and like to to a level, you know, I think that the what does it mean of it all will drive you crazy.

But the how does it meet like tangibly affect our life and lifestyle is key.

It is a lot like when you have like, like just the part that really hit me is like the how spread thin we are managing two full-time jobs, shuttling daycare, managing the house, a dog, putting dinner on the table.

Like, there is so much to do.

And like, you know, our jobs, motherhood, parenting, being a stay-at-home or even like working parent, whatever it is, is that sort of like never ending cycle.

Nothing feels like it is ever complete, except for, Matthew tells me, a clean kitchen.

Like a clean kitchen at the end of the night is how he like shuts down like the day and his brain and like gets ready for another day.

But for me, it’s always like, you’re just shoveling sand at the beach.

Like the water is just going to bring more in, you know?

Like it’s just like good luck, good luck digging that hole, because here comes some more sand to fill it in.

And it’s a lot.

It is so much.

And I just I really relate to that.

It’s just that the relay race of it all.

And like, just when are we ever going to like stop?

When are we ever going to just be able to like pause?

I know.

I just did an episode about adult hobbies.

Yeah.

And was like reading these really meaningful stories from people.

And I know this sounds insane, because it’s like, cool, must be nice to have time.

But people that have like read like academic research about like hobbies and stuff, and like the importance of like assigning time to something you just do for yourself as if it’s as serious as a job or as serious as child care, whatever.

And it’s an interesting concept that I’m like been thinking about a lot lately, because I’ve started getting back into hobbies to get myself off my phone because I’d be physically pried away from it.

And I think what you were saying about optimization is very much my story, like the 2010s optimization culture of an app for everything.

Like I didn’t even have a car.

Somebody else was driving me everywhere.

Like I optimized everything I could because I was so busy.

And the problem with that is it makes you more productive and therefore less present in your life.

And even just, yeah, like sometimes the practice of like figuring out the things I can remove and do less of to like just kind of force myself to be back in my own life a bit has been important for me because the feeling of like never catching your breath as a parent is a weird one, where you’re like, am I even living my own life?

Like this stuff does matter to me.

I do want to spend time with my family, maybe not all the time.

But I don’t know.

I think that like even just taking care of ourselves and re-centering a smidge is like hard to remember.

You’re supposed to also, by the way, all these things, then you’re also supposed to like cook healthy food for yourself, like exercise five to seven times a week for at least 60 minutes.

Yeah.

Like sleep eight hours a night.

But dinner takes a lot of time.

Dinner is like crazy.

The fact that I feel so annoyed by it every day.

Yeah.

The worst question you can ask me is what do I want for dinner?

I don’t know.

I’ve never had dinner.

Every single night, I’m like, dinner again?

Didn’t we just do this?

No, didn’t we just do this, Nora?

Didn’t we just do this?

We just had dinner.

Now you’re telling me we got to do it again?

Okay.

This is not at all relevant to this person’s question.

I’m like, get a hobby, girly.

But I-

Add one more thing.

Yeah.

I’m not telling you to add one more thing, rather.

Whatever you can do to give yourself time and space to think though, like I do think is actually really important because you can consume all of that time with like endless research and ruminating and like, I don’t know.

Do you ever just like pause for a second and have a clear thought and you’re like, huh, well, that was an interesting experiment.

Yeah.

Every once in a while, I’m like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Yeah.

This is not sponsored, but I bricking my phone and giving myself that time back has been a big deal.

It’s been a big deal.

It’s really helped.

I don’t need to, because I will just reflexively be on my phone, like, scrolling, looking at something, listening to something.

Like, can’t I just be alone with my brain ever?

And allowing myself that has, like, when I realize, like, if I spent the amount of time that I do scrolling, like, learning Italian, I would be fluent.

Yeah.

Okay.

I’d probably be fluent in, like, several languages.

The ability to learn language as an adult is something that I marvel at.

It’s so hard.

I mean, I’m…

Yeah, it is.

I’m not…

I wouldn’t say, you know, every once in a while a whole sentence will come to me, and I’m like, ah.

Allora.

Come se dice?

My favorite Italian word is piacere, which means nice to meet you.

Piacere.

Ah, come stai?

We just…

We finished this podcast in Italian.

We’re like…

Ah, davvero?

No.

Allora is really satisfying, too.

Allora is so fun to say.

Because what’s the English version?

Well.

Well, yeah.

Which is just not…

Well, or so.

It’s like a filler word.

It’s like, um.

Yeah, ours aren’t just…

Ours aren’t singing song enough for me.

No, no.

Italian’s so musical.

I love it.

I love it.

I love it.

Okay, that’s all, Kate.

Thank you.

You’re the best.