I Can’t Have Kids and My Friends Are Pregnant

On today’s episode, we hear from Cora Danielson, a comic who has been wrestling with something many women do – her inability to have children despite wanting them very, very much. Her outlet? Improv comedy and the community that came with it, offering her people she could always confide in. Now, two of the women in her group are pregnant and it’s messing with Cora’s head. Her friends haven’t told her they’re pregnant because they don’t want to hurt her feelings, so she heard it from someone else. She feels, overwhelmingly, like they pity her. Today, Nora’s talking to Cora and answering the question many of us have held quietly in our hearts, “How do you deal with being the object of pity?”

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

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Hi.

Hi. Hi there.

Hi.

Hi.

Hey, Nora.

I’m Nora McInerny, and this is Thanks For Asking, a call-in show about what matters to you. There’s a moment from early widowhood that I still haven’t forgotten, even though it has been over a decade now.

It was in those really early days when people are just coming by the house all the time with hot dish.

And in my case, they were also coming by with like little gifts for my son, because honestly, if a toddler’s father dies, if really any kid’s dad dies, you know, get him some toys, all right? Sorry, your dad died. Here are some trinkets.

Honestly, it was really helpful. It was really lovely. I’m very grateful for everybody who did that, but it was in just those early days where everything’s confusing.

And a couple that I didn’t know very well had stopped over to bring me dinner and then they had stayed for dinner. And I did not know what boundaries were, nor would I have, you know, exercised them, even if I did, because I was a raw nerve.

Somebody wanted to come over and bring me food and sit for two hours in my home and have me entertain them. I would say, okay, great, sounds good. I mean, what am I going to do?

Say no. So that’s what had happened. You know, we’d had like, you know, a nice little chat.

I pretended to be able to taste food and to be a normal person. And meanwhile, my two-year-old Ralph was doing what two-year-olds do, just bopping around, playing with the toys that you get when your dad dies.

And he was there on the floor playing with some toys as the couple got their coats on. And the wife looked down, literally looked down at my son and said something like, oh, it’s just so sad. Or like, oh, it’s so heartbreaking.

I, you know, it’s been, it’s been over a decade. Can I remember the exact words? No, but I can remember the feeling.

And the feeling was rage. The feeling was rage, rage, boiling, hot, lava, magma, name another hot liquid, coffee, rage, just rage. Like, yes, of course it is sad that my husband died and that my son’s father died.

Of course, obviously I am sad about it. I was sad about it, but to say out loud about my kid who was just happily playing with little toy cars, to say like, oh, so sad or oh, devastating. It was enraging, but it was also just so dehumanizing.

It was pity that she was expressing, and pity, to plagiarize myself, is a very cheap emotion. We feel bad for someone, that’s free. It doesn’t cost us anything, and I’m from the Midwest.

I love a great deal. I can hand out pity left and right, willy nilly. It’s like, you know, coal’s cash to me.

All right, I feel bad for this person. I feel bad for this person. I feel so bad for all of you.

But to receive pity is to feel like all of your humanity has been reduced to what happened to you. It is to feel like you have just been flattened into this one dimensional creature, and that creature is a sad one. You are no longer a person.

You are a sad story. And also, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this woman wasn’t pitying me.

Maybe this woman wasn’t pitying my child. Maybe she was like we have all been.

Like I have numerous times found myself simply stumbling into a situation that she was unfamiliar with, did not have language for, and her thoughts were just leaking out of her mouth like mine often do. I don’t know.

I don’t know because I didn’t ask. I just assumed and I raged and I am here a decade later thinking, huh, I wonder if two things could be true at the same time. Could that be possible?

Could my own human experience not be the center of the universe?

This is a show where we take your stories, we take your calls, we take your emails. And today we are taking on this one.

Hi Nora, I have been a fan of your show since 2016. I know you have this new call-in show and I thought about submitting a text or a voicemail but I just felt like I could gather my thoughts better in email format.

Hope this is the right email to send this question to. To make a long story short, I am 42, married to a great guy, but due to health issues, I can’t have kids.

It’s been a very painful issue for me to deal with, as I always wanted kids, but the pain of this fact has become all the more acute. To give you a bit of backstory, I’m part of a vibrant improv comedy scene.

It’s where, when I first moved to this town, I made the bulk of my friendships I still have today and it’s even where I met my husband. I love being part of a community where our main goal is to make each other laugh.

But what was once a source of so much pleasure and happiness has now become a source of sadness and pain. Two friends of mine in this community are pregnant.

It’s incredibly hard for me to be around them, not just because they’re going to have babies soon, but also because they are my age. I think for this reason, I feel more acutely what I am missing out on.

It’s like their lives run parallel to mine in so many similar ways, but for these women, they just made it across the fertility finish line while I couldn’t even compete to begin with.

I should say neither one of these women have told me they are pregnant. I heard about their good news, sorry to put that in quotes, I know that sounds harsh, through the grapevine. Of course, I know why they haven’t told me anything.

It’s because I’ve confided in both of them about my own pain surrounding my inability to have kids, and now they feel awkward about the fact that they’re going to have a life I so desperately wanted. Basically, they pity me.

I was talking about it with my therapist today, and he asked me if I could use another word besides pity to describe how these women would see me. It was so hard to come up with an alternative answer.

My therapist tried to help me see the big picture, etc. But truthfully, I couldn’t get past the word pity. I can’t describe why I hate it so much when it applies to me.

It’s on a visceral level so deep, I just can’t fully articulate it. My question is, how do you deal with being an object of pity? I’ll be honest in that I have thought about leaving my little improv community just to escape this pain of being pitied.

Of course, I understand there are women with babies everywhere, but this instance just feels so much more personal and harder to deal with.

I know that walking away from my community would mean losing other meaningful connections as well as the major outlet for my creativity.

I just don’t know how to hold my head high and not feel as though people in my friend group are looking at me and thinking, poor thing.

The thought fills me with so much embarrassment, shame and rage that I question whether or not it’s worth it to literally leave town and start a whole new social life somewhere else, preferably with a low birth rate. Anyway, thanks for your time.

If you have made it this far, love your show best Cora.

So there’s a lot to this one.

I felt it and feel it in the core of my bones. So we are going to talk to Cora, but we are also going to hear from you about pity, about survival, about wanting what it feels like everyone else gets.

Cora, thank you for writing that email and for putting that all out there in the world. I know there are a lot of people who need to hear something like that, and it just sounds like you’re carrying a lot.

So I’m gonna back up a minute and just say, I wanna know why you moved to this town. Like what brought you to the town that you live in?

I came here for school and I was doing my masters in clinical psychology and thought I wanted to be a therapist at the time. And I met my husband at this improv group cause I was just looking to meet new people.

And it became a source of creativity that I felt unlocked in me. And a lot of people talk about struggling to make friends as an adult. And I feel very lucky that I don’t really have that problem.

I meet people through this group, and we meet weekly, and people drop in, and I make new friends, and it’s very easy. So, I just, then my husband and I got married and we stayed.

What made you want to sign up for improv specifically as a way to make friends?

Well, I did do a little bit of improv in college. So I did know, I did have familiarity. Familiarity, oh God.

I was aware of it before I signed up for it here, but it had been a long time since I had done it.

I think I’ve just been a very extroverted person and I love being funny and it tapped into that as opposed to, you know, I did the other kind of things that you do when you move to a new town and there was a group called Newcomers and I think I went

to one or two of those like kayaking around and you know, like going to, I don’t know, bars and stuff. And I just, I don’t like small talk. And it was just a better way to connect with people.

For me, like a lot of people would find it terrifying, but for me, it was, it felt very natural.

So you meet your husband at improv, you two say yes and, and then you say, yes, I will marry you. And you get married. And I mean, how old were you when you got married and what was your expectation or hope for the future of your family?

Gosh, okay.

I mean, I got married at 28, which to me feels very young. But I think at the time it felt like I was middle aged and a lot of my friends were already married.

And I think my expectation was that we would be able to have a family and have a home, and I would have a fulfilling job.

And I am embarrassed to admit this, but if I really look back on it, I think I thought all those things house, home, job, kids, I thought they would all just happen.

Oh yeah, same. Like that’s what I ordered, so I feel like it would just show up.

Yeah, I did marriage.

Yeah, and so now the rest can come to me right now, please. When did you find out that that would not be what your marriage and your family looked like? How did the two of you process that?

Well, so I have always had health issues.

When I was in my 20s, I was diagnosed with a condition called interstitial cystitis, which is chronic inflammation of the bladder. And I worried about how pregnancy would affect me. And, you know, because I know pregnancy is hard on a good bladder.

And, you know, I was actually, by the time my husband and I got married, I was in remission. And so I didn’t have symptoms anymore of like constantly needing to go to the bathroom and taking all this medication.

And I think I kind of wanted to hold on to that remission. And I was very afraid of rocking the boat, so to speak.

And so I really had to face a choice of, do I move forward and just sort of take a gamble with pregnancy, because it could make things worse. It could bring back the symptoms or it could not. But that was a very difficult choice.

And I think looking back on it, I didn’t want to make it. So I just told myself I always had time. I should provide some more context.

My mom had my younger sibling. They have come out as non-binary to me, so I use they, them. They were born as a surprise when my mom was 42, when my mom was my age.

My mom thought she was going through menopause.

And that’s the story of my dad’s life, maybe. Oh, my grandma was like, I mean, damn near 50.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah. And like, I mean, 10th pregnancy. And I mean, sounds like your mom at least had a good attitude.

My dad’s like life story, his origin story was, and my mom cried and cried.

Like, okay. Wow.

And naturally too, I’m assuming.

Yeah, like Catholics in the 40s? What are you talking about?

Yeah, yeah. No, it’s all natural.

Sorry.

Just readjusting. So anyways, in my head, I was always going to be fertile. And then I hit my late 30s, early 40s.

And suddenly it was like, oh my gosh, okay, I’m going to make the decision. And yeah, oh, okay. Now I really got to it.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Look at the time and we tried and it didn’t happen. And I looked at the cost of fertility treatments and decided I did not want to go that route.

I think because of my health problems, I just had fears around injecting myself with hormones and medicine, or not medicine, but drugs.

Whatever it is. Who knows what it is? It’s just stuff.

It’s like work for you and it’s expensive, and they can’t guarantee you that it will work. And I remember seeing the price of it and being like, oh, I don’t have that kind of money. I thought it would be a reasonable copay.

Yes.

Not a mortgage.

I didn’t know there would be a comma involved.

Oh my God.

I didn’t know there would be five digits.

Yeah.

Not including change.

You know.

You come to a consensus, at least, about the reality of the situation and what your family will look like. And I know that there’s a big difference between what your head knows and what your heart and spirit feel. What is the difference with that?

How do you process it? And how do you talk about that with your friends as well?

So, it’s funny, I process it maybe not in the healthiest ways, which is ironic, because I wanted to be a therapist one day.

But, I did, for a long time, I think I just suppressed it, and really just tried to ignore it, because it was this ambiguous grief, that I still don’t really know how to deal with it.

And it comes in waves, and often at terrible times, when I’m really not in the right headspace for it, I did end up joining an online support group for childless women, and that has been just life-saving.

Like, I mean, it’s not that I was ever thinking about you know, it’s not that I’ve gotten so depressed I’ve ever thought about taking my own life through all of this, but at the same time, it’s felt so lonely, because, you know, my husband could have

gone either way. He was okay with being a dad. He would have been open to it, and he’s told me like, yes, sometimes I do feel that loss, but not as much as you do. He’s admitted that.

Like, there’s definitely, it’s uneven.

And so the childless women’s support group, I get to hear from other women like me, and I get to hear about how painful it is to kind of walk around and act like everything’s fine, and you’re happy for everyone who has a child and has a pregnancy

announcement, and inside you are just crumbling, or somebody makes a casual comment at work about pregnancy or baby showers or whatever, and you can’t sort of, you can’t be happy for them, and it stays with you the rest of the day, that feeling of

despair and grief. So that’s been at least a very healthy thing, I think I’ve done. And one thing I’ve been trying to do with my husband is like text him when I’m at work and say, it’s really bad today. The grief is really bad today.

I need you to do something special for me when I come home. I just need you to make me feel valued. Because sometimes it feels like because I’m not a mother, I’m not valued.

Tell me more about that.

I feel like I’m kind of caught in this limbo gray area that no one really talks about of having wanted kids.

And then that’s in the middle. And then on one side are the people who are very happy to be moms, and they’re always posting pictures of their kids on social media.

And they care about the future, and they feel like, yeah, you’ve got a right to be wanting better for your kids.

And so there’s, I’m not articulating it well, but there’s sort of, on one hand, and there’s moms who are extremely proud and happy, and then on the other side, there are child-free women, which I tried to identify with at first.

Like, oh, this is great. I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, you know? And I don’t like kids, and they’re loud and messy, and I, you know, I can’t hear you over all the vacations I’m having.

But that neither one is me right now. And maybe, yeah, it is solely based on what I see on social media. But I feel like, sorry, going back to your question, moms are valued.

Their stories are told. You know, as I was talking about earlier, I’m struggling to find movies and books and representations of my story without it being tragic and sad.

And, you know, this woman’s either a spinster, goes crazy, lives up in the attic. I don’t know.

It’s…

I don’t really see that in a lot of places. It’s very hard to seek out in popular culture. And then that makes me feel like less about my…

I feel like my story is therefore, you know, not worth being seen or talked about. So it’s sort of like, well, that I’m not going to talk about it.

I think that’s all fair. And I mean, it sounds like a tale is old as time, which is when you’re online and you see what other people’s outsides look like, you make assumptions that your insides aren’t as good.

And I definitely have done that over probably a million different topics, depending on the day. If you’re looking for any confirmation that your life is not good enough, go on your phone is my number one tip.

If you feel like, God, I’m not sure maybe my life is good, but maybe not, go online. Check it out. See what other people, people you know, people you don’t know, people you used to know, people you met once at a party in 2008, go check on them.

Go check on them and see if they’re doing better than you. They are, all of them. They’re all doing better, they’re all happier.

When you are in this space and you’re talking about this with your friends from improv, and none of you have kids at this point, correct?

Yeah, you know, I really think that outside of my immediate family, this is where my focus is in terms of carrying and love and acceptance and belonging.

Because I moved and I never thought about what it would really truly mean to move away from my family, you know, until I did. And it’s not easy to go back to visit my family. So I’m here in the United States and my family is from Canada.

And so it’s not easy to keep, you know, going, going back and forth. And so I think this group of friends, this community here is like my surrogate family. And I think it’s that way for a lot of us.

Yeah.

So before, like, you know, I’m trying to kind of get us into the place where like you find out they’re pregnant. Was this their first pregnancies or are they already moms?

Like, uh…

When it was their second pregnancy.

Okay.

And when it was their first.

Okay. So when you’re going through, you know, the realization that you won’t be having children, how do you talk to your improv friend group, you know, like your real, your friend group, basically, about this and how do they respond?

So I should say that these two women that I found out were pregnant and are the same age as me, I’m not as close to them as I am, like two or three other people in the group.

And, you know, my best friend in the group, of course, I talked about this with her, and she came at it from a very compassionate angle of, you know, you still matter even if you don’t have kids. I understand how painful this must be though.

And, you know, another friend of mine, actually the husband of the woman who was, one of the women who was pregnant was like, I want you to know that we love you and we want you in our lives. And, you know, that really meant a lot.

It all means a lot. I found out through the grapevine with both of them, just sort of at a party, kind of casually talking to people, oh, I think so and so is pregnant, you know.

And I, I noticed that this is, like, getting sucked in the gut for some reason. It is, like, unexpectedly hard, because, I don’t know, 42 is just now, it became the age where I could do it in my mind. That was a story I told myself for so long.

And I sort of thought that everybody in my friend group who was in their 40s was kind of done having kids. And I wouldn’t have to deal with that, with people, you know, my own age. But, glory hallelujah!

It seems to not be the case with everyone, except me. But I, you know, it’s one of those moments where you have to sort of pretend again, everything’s fine. You can’t break down in the middle of a party or get together and be like, what?

I mean, I’m the only 40-something in our friend group who isn’t a mom or who isn’t… And that’s not true. But I’m the only one who wanted to be, and now I’m not.

So, it’s a lot of masking. It’s a lot of, like, just holding it together and pretending that you’re happy, because if you act like you’re devastated, you’re upset, I mean, this is supposed to be good news. And I don’t want to make anyone feel bad.

I don’t want anybody to, you know, I am, there is that, I try to tap into that feeling of, I’m happy for these people. But, I don’t know. It’s, when I have to mask it, I also have to mask it for myself too.

I also have to walk around with it and pretend it’s not there to kind of get through the day. And then when I come home, I feel kind of numb.

And so it’s been very hard to pull it out of me slowly, but surely, and I think when I sent you that email, I was just having kind of a crisis of, you know, how do I cope with this? I don’t know how to cope with this.

I’m so embarrassed to admit that I’m not okay with hearing this kind of thing, hearing about pregnancies. I’m so embarrassed to admit that it hurts me so much.

It sounds like they’re, it’s not that you found out in the wrong way. It sounds like there wasn’t even a real right way that you could have found out. It just would have been painful no matter what.

I think you’re right.

Yeah. Because then I found out later through social media and I was like, oh, okay.

Yeah. It’s official now.

One of the things that, you know, stood out to me from this letter is, you know, that you’re like considering or willing to give up, you know, what sounds like your biggest social support, you know, like you’re the heft of like your social circle

over this feeling. I think you wrote, you know, there’s pregnant people everywhere, but not pregnant ones, I know, you know, not ones who feel like, I wonder if it’s almost like that their lives are so similar to yours, except they are getting

something that you really, really wanted and you aren’t. And now they went from parallel to forked in that way.

Yeah, yeah.

And I, you know, a random person who’s pregnant, you know, is just not the same. And even someone who’s younger than me, yes, it’s painful to hear that, but it’s still not quite on this level.

I think sometimes there’s a part of me that feels very liberated by that idea. Like, I could just leave this group and start afresh somewhere else, to kind of grow some other part of myself with other people. And…

Yeah, I mean, I want to sometimes do that, still. But, I haven’t. And I think it’s because…

Maybe I just, I don’t know, I know in theory that I could probably try and build another friendship group somewhere else. But I know that would be hard, and I think part of me feels like I would be even lonelier.

And, because again, I talked about how I feel lonely already in dealing with this. But sometimes it’s like I go there and the feeling is amplified. The loneliness.

The bad one?

The loneliness is, yeah.

Yeah.

I have to ask, have you talked to any of them about this? They do.

And actually, I have talked to both of the women in this group. And I reached, well, one of them I reached out to via e-mail. And the other I talked to in person.

And both times, you know, for one of them, it was about a baby shower that she wanted to invite me to. And she checked in with me first, because she was like, you don’t have to come to this, but I wanted to invite you, but you don’t have to.

But I wanted to check in. And I was really touched that she did that. And I said, you know, thank you.

I really, really, really appreciate you asking. No, I don’t want to come. But thank you for asking.

And I felt like that kind of relieved some of that tension I was feeling.

Yeah.

And then with the other one, we were actually going to be doing a show. And I sort of thought, well, that I was going to be directing.

And I thought, well, you know, if she feels like she needs to go home early because she’s feeling tired or whatever, because I’ve heard from friends that being pregnant, I mean, some of them have felt very tired.

I’m like, and maybe this is a way to kind of break the ice. But I emailed her and was like, you know, congratulations, I’m really happy for you. Let me know if you need to leave early.

And from rehearsals. And she was very nice about it and said, yeah, you know, we’re excited. I didn’t bring this up with you because I thought it was something you might not want to talk about.

And but thank you for, you know, reaching out to me. And and so in both cases, I felt like I kind of tried at least to smooth things over.

Or no, actually, I should say I wasn’t always the one initiating it, but I tried to say like, yeah, you know, I’m happy for you. Thank you for thinking of me. You know, did the did the mature adult thing.

Yeah, I’m still left with these feelings.

So yeah. What is pity to you?

Pity, it brings up feelings of just.

Astronomical shame. Pity is someone has something you don’t. And therefore, it’s sort of like, it encompasses your whole identity when somebody pities you.

You’re a sad story. You’re a cautionary tale. You’re an example of how things can go wrong.

And someone would look at you and think, they’re but for the grace of God go I, you know? Pity is just obviously comes with a lot of baggage for me.

Yeah, I think, to me, like, you know pity when you feel it.

You know, when you’re on the receiving end of it and there’s something about it that feels dehumanizing in a way that is hard to articulate because on the surface, right, someone is feeling something for you.

But pity tends to turn you from a person into nothing except a sad story. When in reality, and I’m saying this directly to you, I mean you, when I say this, you’re not a sad story. Your story has sadness.

Your story makes you sad. Parts of it, parts of your story make you sad. Parts of your story make other people sad, but you are not the sad story.

You are not a sad story. You are not just this situation, you know, and you never were.

And whatever, you know, devastating or consuming experience or feeling that you’re carrying, it really can become this thing that exists between you and the world and between you and people who, you know, want to be there for you and simply don’t

know how. And I think most of us are just so inept. We’re so inept. We’re so uncomfortable with somebody else’s discomfort.

We just, you know, want so badly to, like, know the right thing to do or say that we inevitably do the exact wrong thing or say the exact wrong thing.

And it sounds like, hearing this, like, the people in this friend group, they can’t understand from experience, right? Like, this is your experience only.

But they’re trying to sort of find their way through this maze, like, towards you, at least, right? Like, not knowing, you know, like, do you want to come to this baby shower? Should I bring it up to you?

Should I wait for you to bring it up to me? You know? Do you want me to sidebar you after an improv show and say, hey, I’m going to say something, and I don’t know how you’re going to react to it.

You want to go, right? And put you in the position of crying, or put, you know, you in the position of having to, like, choke it back and mask it.

And I think I feel for every person in that situation, because I’ve been every person in that situation at different times. And I know just how big and impossible it all feels for everybody.

But I also understand why you feel like there’s, like, these two sort of, like, factions. On the one hand, right? Like, moms matter.

People care about moms, to a point.

That’s true, yeah.

Till the kid arrives. But even then, right? Like, there’s Mother’s Day, right?

Even at work, right? You can be like, I gotta go. I gotta go early.

I gotta take my kid to whatever thing, you know? There is more understanding there. There is sort of some sense that you’re fulfilling a cosmic purpose.

We have an administration who says things like, that is your job. That is your purpose. You don’t go to college.

Don’t get a cat.

Right. Yeah. I was going to say, there are your childless cat lady here.

Yeah.

Right? And I also want to say, and again, I am saying this to you. I am saying this to you.

I’m saying this to every woman who does not have a child, whether or not they consider themselves, you know, childless or child free, which is a person without children, a woman without children specifically, is a vital part of the world and a vital

part of a mother’s life and a child’s life if you want to be that person. And I could not survive motherhood without the women in my life who don’t have kids.

Those are, to me, and she knows I’m talking about, you know, everyone knows I’m talking about Caroline Moss specifically here, right? But I have a lot of friends who don’t have kids, and some of them really wanted kids, and some of them never did.

And like, these are my best sounding boards. They are trusted adults in my children’s lives, and I get the best parenting advice from these women. I really do.

And that’s cold comfort, right? That’s not even a consolation prize. It’s something else.

Yeah. I don’t know. It’s been a long time since I’ve gotten, I’ve, you know, been in any sort of like award situation, but like, you know, it’s not what you wanted.

It’s just not what you wanted. And if no one has told you this, like, let me be the person to say, like, that sucks. It sucks that you didn’t get what you want.

Sucks that you don’t get to be a mom. It sucks that you want to be a mom. You would be a good mom and you don’t get to do it.

And it sucks that you have to watch the people in your life who you love. And of course you want good things. Four, get something that you want and can’t have.

That fucking sucks. It just sucks. It just sucks.

Well, thank you so much for saying all that.

I mean, it hit me really hard when you said it. Like pity is dehumanizing. And the pity is dehumanizing.

And you are this two-dimensional story. And I think that that’s how I’ve been seeing it for a long time.

And yeah, where it’s also really incredible to hear you say, you know, that the women who don’t have children in your life still played an important role.

And Tuesday, Tuesday, who’s, you know, when especially, I gotta say, especially older kids, I’m like, go, go call Caroline.

Like, I don’t know.

Like, you don’t want to tell me? Go tell her.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

No, I mean, I, I care very much once the kids are here, once I get to know them. And once I get to know their beautiful personalities.

Yeah.

And I’m not saying, by the way, that you have to do any of that. You know what I mean?

But like, there, there’s space for you in this world, in your friend group, you know, in these situations and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the people who love you might not be pitying you.

They might not be doing all of the right things, but they also just might not know what to do. And they’re really, really looking for a leader. And unfortunately, you’re the leader.

Like, you are the only person who truly knows how you feel. And like, if you decide like, you know what? I want to be, I want to be Auntie Cora, and I want to be, you know, your, like I want to be your kid’s like fairy godmother.

Go be that person. Like, you did not get to choose the thing that you lost. And right now, it feels like that is defining you, whether it really is defining you to other people, it’s definitely defining you to yourself.

That feels like the headline, you know, that you’re, that you’re leading with, and that’s unfair because that was a subject line in an email.

But it won’t always be, and you do still get to define your life and what it means and what it means in relationship to the people around you.

That is still something that you can do, and there still is so much for you, and it still sucks you didn’t get what you want.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don’t think I really, until now, really realized how much this, I know it sounds silly, but how much I was living as a two-dimensional person, when I really realized this wasn’t going to happen for me. Just a sad story, sad example.

And you’re right that I think I also felt resentful that no one knew how to talk to me about it, and I didn’t know how to talk about it either. I didn’t know how to be the leader like you were saying. I didn’t know how to…

I didn’t even want to bring it up.

Of course, it’s like you don’t want to be here, let alone be the person who’s supposed to be a cartographer, a mapping out the land for everybody else when you’re like, I also just got dropped here. I don’t want to be here.

You don’t speak the language, and somehow you’re supposed to learn it, make it up, and teach it to somebody else, like your Duolingo or something. It’s just so dumb. It’s so dumb, and yet that’s being a person.

Being a person is being like, wow, we really have no idea what we’re doing. We have no idea what we’re doing, and we’re out here just learning on each other. It’s wild.

It’s wild. I really thought not only would I get the things that I wanted in the way that I wanted them, because I did want four kids, but I got them in the weirdest way, the most traumatic way possible for all involved.

But also I would just know the right things at the right time. And I would just know what to do when I was supposed to do it. And unfortunately, I remain mostly an idiot.

So here we go.

It’s funny you’re going to say that, because I’m like, oh my God, you’re so wise. You’re so smart.

I mean, outside looking in, baby, I can solve anyone’s problems, but ask me about my own.

And also, by the way, every single time, I crash out, spiral out, go through something, hit the pit of despair, believe that I am feeling something brand new to the face of this earth and no one will ever understand me.

I speak to another person and I learn, oh, oops. Perfectly singular and yet tragically universal. And yeah, I just have to be reminded over and over, like we’re all just idiots doing our best and man.

Okay, now can I give you some unsolicited advice?

Yes. Okay.

Don’t leave your improv group, don’t leave your friend group, don’t leave your city behind, don’t pull up stakes and flee for the sake of two pregnancies, right? And for the sake of just the depths of despair that you are feeling right now.

My dad was an annoying person and a recovering alcoholic and it was full of just phrases. And he always told me that wherever you go, there you are.

And I did not know what he meant, because of course you are where you are, what are you talking about? And yet, and yet, I’ve also spent most of my life believing that there is a geographic cure out there for me.

If I switch jobs, if I switch boyfriends, if I switch careers overall, if I switch cities, if I get a different car, a different notebook. My God, I just got a notebook yesterday. So don’t take this.

I do that too.

Yeah, I’m like, oh, it’s fresh now.

Oh, man.

My thoughts are going to be so much clearer with this one.

It’s over. Okay, it’s over for everyone. Once I get the perfect notebook and pen combination, you’re going to know the difference, okay?

You’re going to say, well, this woman is on it. Okay, she’s really got it together.

But I always believe that I’m just one thing away from figuring it out, and I have to say, my dad was right, it’s annoying, but it’s not where you are or even necessarily who you’re with. It’s how you are and who you are with yourself.

And, you know, a woman’s fertility window closes, and eventually you will have friends who will not, can’t surprise you with a new pregnancy at the same age you are, okay?

You might make new friends who are a little younger, and it probably won’t sting in the same way, or you’ll be in a different like life phase, that will just feel different, but like that all changes.

But I would hate to see you throw away everything that you have and everything that you built for the sake of a feeling that you have right now that is real, but also not permanent, and for a future that is not preordained, where you are convinced

that you won’t have any value to this world or this fan group. And it’s a horrible lie that has been told to you, and you are telling yourself, and it’s just not true.

Thank you. Yeah, I think what’s also really resonated with me is that hearing someone else say, yeah, women without children don’t have a role, don’t have value. And so our society says, and it’s not true.

No, it’s an insane thing for somebody to say, or like, what?

What? No, no, no, no. And, but like, I get it.

Like our, I don’t know. Like we are filled with so many, there’s so many messages that echo that right now especially where you’re just like, what? Are you serious?

Like, are we really having this conversation in the year 2026? We’re really saying these things about women? Like that our only purpose on earth is to procreate.

And obviously that is something that I’ve done. It’s something that, you know, that I wanted to do. I thought I wouldn’t be able to do.

And yet to like, my life would have purpose and meaning and value regardless, though, you know, I’m from the Midwest. And it was a tough thing. Honestly, Cora, it was a tough fucking thing.

It was a tough thing. I do remember going to baby showers and just being like, okay, you know. And of course, you’re happy for people, right?

Like, of course, you are happy for all of your friends when they, you know, get their heart’s desires and, like, many things can be true at once. And it can sting you the same way that it thrills you for them. It can hurt you for you.

So people feel like this. Everybody feels like this at some point in their life. I promise you.

I promise you. Maybe not about this, but about something else. So it’s just very human.

It’s very human.

Yeah. Well, no, you’re right. And I’m realizing it’s like, I feel like, oh, I’m the elephant in the room.

No one wants to talk about what’s going on with me because they all feel bad for me. And yet I know that there have been times when I’ve been that way too with people. I’ve been the onlooker, not knowing what to say.

Yeah.

And honestly, maybe you didn’t even feel, maybe you weren’t pitying them. Sometimes we are, right? Sometimes we are.

Sometimes I’m driving down the street and I see somebody and I’m like, oh God, no. We’ve all pitied people and also we’ve all truly empathized with people. And I don’t know, to assume the worst case, right?

That that’s all they see in you is your want, your need, your sadness is such a, of course that’s a lonely place to be, right? It’s an isolating place to be.

And I’m sure your therapist has told you this and I’m not a therapist, let alone yours, but like you don’t have to think every thought, like, and they’re certainly not true just because you’re thinking of, you went to school to be a therapist, okay?

Tell yourself that, okay?

Yes, I know.

You have to think these things, like you have to think, wow, God, no one wants to talk to me. Like, no, Cora’s fun and funny and like good at improv and has really good hair. I’m so jealous of your hair.

Oh.

Wow, you have so much hair.

Thank you.

I love yours too.

One thing I love about making this show and making the show in this way is that when I put it out there, that there is a listener who has asked a question and I need help answering it, all of you just like pop in.

All of you do, I really like that. So I had told Cora that I was going to put out the quandary that she had asked me out to all of you. I posted a little thing on Instagram.

I said, guys, I need your help, and you came through. I’ve got a couple of voicemails to share from you guys, and I have a couple of text messages, and we’re going to start with this one. To the woman who worried that she is being pitied.

I imagine your friends feel awkward because they don’t know how to share this news in a way that doesn’t feel insensitive. They should have just told you, but I don’t see it as pity.

I see it as people fumbling through a hard situation and thinking not talking will make it better. It won’t. Now, you could talk to them and say, being told would have hurt, not being told hurt more.

It feels like I’m being pitied. And then give them space to share their perspective. That is very mature.

That is very enlightened. It is very hard to get there on your own to get to that enlightened perspective when you are the person at the center of it and you are heightened. But I think that is just really, really, really solid advice and insight.

We have another one, two. Honestly, this is such a hard subject. I get yearning for your own children, but there are children who are yearning to be someone’s everything too.

Don’t give up hope. It’s so difficult to watch others become mothers when you can’t, but there are many ways to be a mother. Motherhood isn’t just tied to your own, quote unquote, children.

I think I said earlier in this episode that I could not be a parent or it’s certainly not like a great one.

I’m not like I’m a great one, but a key part of parenting to me is having input from other adults and making sure that my kids are surrounded by other adults who love them and who are not just me and their dad.

Shout out to all the fairy godmothers, my friends who do not have their own children, but who love my children so completely and so perfectly. If Caroline Moss hears this, I’m talking about you, babe. You know it.

You are the greatest. I’m so glad to be parenting my children with you because honestly sometimes I’m like, just call Caroline, just ask her. I don’t know.

I don’t know. Ask her. No one to me has better advice than somebody who does not have their own kids.

They’re so unburdened by what might look right. They just have a better, they just have such a good outside perspective. I really, really, really appreciate it.

And I also, I want to be careful with topics like this too, because I think sometimes people are like, well, you can just adopt or you can just do foster care. You can do it. It’s lost all around.

There are no simple answers. And, you know, it’s all grief. It’s all grief to me, baby.

All right. We got a couple of voicemails too. Let’s go to the voicemails.

Here’s the first one is…

This message is for the woman who’s struggling with coming to the realization that she’s not having children. And I know that it’s rough when all of your friends are having children and you feel left out.

What I can say is I think it’s super important to find a group of women who are in the same boat as you. I went on a group trip once that wasn’t purposely for child free women, but kind of had that theme to it.

And I met a group of women that were all different stages of life that were either didn’t have children, couldn’t have children, didn’t want to have children. But it brought me a group of women that were in the same boat as me.

And I think that was so important to be able to share all of our lives that aren’t focused around children and see how full all of their lives are.

Really gave me hope that I wouldn’t be left out or be alone and that my life could be just as fulfilling. I think seeing that example is super important.

Of course, all of your friends with children are just as important to you as well, but I think it’s really important to have that network of women who are doing things differently like you are, so that you can really see how great life can be either

way. So go find those people, even if they’re not people that are in your day-to-day life. If they’re a network, most of my girlfriends are all scattered all over the country.

I don’t see them all the time, but we have a really shared connection and I can always reach out to them. I think that’s really important.

Good luck.

I love that. That’s great advice. That’s great advice.

Go find other women like you. Okay? And like I said earlier, like you can and you will have a really big, beautiful full life.

Like kids are great and also, you know, they’re not everything. No offense to my children.

Norn, I’m calling about the woman whose friends are all having children and she’s not able to have children or isn’t choosing to have children.

My best advice for her, having been there myself, is create friendships with people who do not have children. Whether they’re child free or child free by choice, or child free not by choice, there are tons of meetup groups for child free people.

I would really encourage her to expand her friendship circle to cultivate friendships with people who don’t have kids.

For myself, I found that finding friends who were a little bit older than me or a little bit younger than me was a great way to expand that friendship circle to include people who also did not have children. So that’s my best advice.

I hope that helps.

Thanks.

You guys are the best. You guys are the best. I’m so glad that we are all here.

In one moment, I’m actually going to share something that I need your insights on as well. Okay. And actually, we’re going to do that right now.

There are two topics, two things that people wrote in about. And I said, I got to bring this. I got to bring this to the group.

I got to bring this to the group chat. The group chat, of course, being this podcast. These are things that we will be addressing on a future episode.

But I do want your point of view. Okay, so this person wrote, I lost a spouse and I currently struggle with grief every day. My spouse I lost was a teacher for a living.

I miss him so much, I found another teacher just like him. And I started dating him. I recently found out that the man I’m dating has an assault charge for domestic violence against a woman.

He also lives in a very sketchy neighborhood and I’ve seen some red flags while dating. But because of my grief, I can’t let this guy go. What are your thoughts?

He reminds me exactly of my ex-spouse. I know my thoughts, but I would like to know yours. And I have another.

OK, here’s another one. I know you’re not all widows, but like, you know, we’ve got we’ve got a lot of widows coming out of the woodwork right now. OK.

Hi, I’m a widow. Almost two years out, I lost my husband to suicide. To tell you, I love him is true, but I wasn’t in love with him simply because of life and the ways that he would treat me, etc.

Fast forward to now, I’m dating a widower who I’ve fallen hard for, but he is not as far out and he struggles with a lot, including guilt, not wanting to introduce me to his in-laws for fear of shame, retribution, and guilt, all of the above and

more, I think. I know he’s fallen also, but he can’t say it, and I’m just maybe seeking guidance from someone who met their new spouse while being so in love with the previous. I love hearing about them. I love letting him talk freely.

I respect that his house is covered in pictures of her. And honestly, that apparently I’m incredibly similar to her. But how can I better support him?

What did Matthew do that helped you? That’s that part of the questions for me. Thanks for any help or guidance.

So I’m putting that out to the group. Want to know what you think about that. Again, the phone number is 612-568-4441.

The email is thanks at feelingsand.co. Okay, I’ve had some thoughts.

I’ve had some thoughts after the interview and listening to everybody else’s advice. And I think that the flip side of pity is often envy. Both are ugly, they are, both are dehumanizing.

Both kind of flatten the other person into what we are perceiving of them. Pity says, oh man, you are so sad. Ew, you’re so sad, oh.

Envy says, okay, well, wow, your life is perfect. Your life is just perfect, isn’t it? Both are hard to feel, both are hard to talk about.

Both are not always based on reality. I was so envious when my husband died of people whose husbands were alive, but did all of them have healthy relationships? Are all of them even still married?

I have pitied people who would probably pity me if they could see inside my own little broken heart or my own depressive brain. So the more I live, the more certain I am that I don’t actually know anything. I don’t know a single thing.

All wisdom is temporary. We are really truly living in a group project, trying our best to get it passing grade. I am so grateful to Cora for having the guts to share her story and share those feelings with us.

I am so grateful to all of you who called in and texted in and shared your own feelings. This show is also a group project, and we couldn’t do it without you, and we wouldn’t want to. It would be so weird to do a podcast for nobody.

I’m Nora McInerny. This is Thanks For Asking. Thank you for being here.

Thank you for being here. We’re an independent podcast. I don’t know if I’ve said this yet, guys, but we won an award.

We won an iHeart Radio Podcast Award on March 16th at South by Southwest, live in Austin, Texas. We won. Who did we beat?

Michelle Obama. Who? Chrissy Teigen.

What? Jay Shetty. Huh?

And also this awesome guy named Dr. J. He’s got a show called Heel with Dr.

J. I just started listening to it. I really love it.

But that felt really good. You know, I didn’t really know I needed to win until I got a win, if you know what I mean. It’s no small thing to still be making an independent podcast 10 years later.

We literally couldn’t do it without you, so thank you for listening, spending time with us. It is so cool that I am a part of your day.

When I actually meet someone who listens to the show, I’m like, I’m in your car with you, I’m in your headphones with you. I really mean that. Wow, wow, that is so cool.

Wow, that is so cool. So thank you. Anytime you’ve shared this or rated it or reviewed it, I know it’s so annoying.

Everyone is so annoying. All podcasters are so annoying. I have to beg you to do all this stuff, and you’re like, I’m listening to the podcast.

What else do you want? We want everything, just kidding. But thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And again, tell a friend about the show, but really reach out to us. I want your comments, questions, concerns, feedback, topics that you want to talk about.

You can call, you can text, you can email at 612-568-4441, thanks at feelingsand.co. We have a YouTube channel, if that’s what you’re into. We have a Substack.

I put out a free essay every week. We get ad-free episodes over there. The full back catalog is over there.

We do monthly reading roundups. You can comment, you can chat with people. You can join monthly, annually, or you can join as a supporting producer.

And guess what they get? They get their name in the credits, baby. Speaking of credit, this episode was produced by Marcel Malekibu.

Our opening theme music is by Geoffrey Lamar Wilson. And our closing theme music is by my youngest son, Q. And now it is time to thank all of our supporting producers who are people who have signed up to support us at the highest level.

And those people are Augie Book, Joy Heising, No Name, Nancy Duff, Jenny Medeine, Kathleen Langerman, Jordan Jones, Ben, Jess, Beth Derry, Sarah Garifo, Kathy Sivian, Sarah David, Mary Beth Berry, Sheila Crystal, Kaylee Sakai, Virginia Labassi,

Lizzie DeVries, Rachel Walton, David Binkley, Lisa Piven, Michelle Toms, Nicole Petey, Melody Swinford, Caroline Moss, my best friend, Michelle O. Anderbrzynski, Amanda, Jess Blackwall, Abbiah Rose, Crystal Mann, Bonnie Robinson, Lauren Hanna,

Jacqueline Ryder, Patrick Irvine, Shannon Dominguez-Stevens, Kathy Hamm, Erin John, Penny Pesta, greatest name of all time, Mad, Christina, Emily Fariso. I’ve been saying Fariso, so with a hard S, is it Fariso? You gotta tell me.

Elizabeth Berkley, Kiara, Monica, Alyssa Robison, Kaylee, Kate Byer-Jean, Jessica Reed, Courtney McCown, Jeremy Essen, Lindsay Lund, Jessica Letexier, Lexi Lane-Watkins, Robin Roulard, Jill MacDonald, Dave Gilmore, Laura Savoy, Chelsea Siernik, Kelly

Conrad, Micah, and Jen Grimlin. Thank you guys so much for being here, and we’ll see you again next week.