How Do I Trust in Love When My Heart Has Been Broken?

Nora talks with Jess, a struggling caller who has found herself in a relationship with someone she desperately wants to trust. But after a string of unhealthy relationships, Jess can’t help but feel like she’s just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

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Um, how are you? Most of us say fine or good, but obviously it’s not always fine and sometimes it’s not even that good. This is a podcast that gives people the space to be honest about how they really feel.

It’s a place to talk about life, the good, the bad, the awkward, the complicated. I’m Nora McInerny and this is Thanks For Asking.

Hi, I’m Nora McInerny, and this is Thanks For Asking, a call-in show about what matters to you, and what matters more to any of us than love.

Most of us have spent some amount of time kissing frogs, swiping right, swiping left, searching for connection, searching for true love. Most of us have had our hearts broken or bruised or just completely decimated.

Just someone has our heart in their hands, they take it, they say, oh, is this fragile? And then they smash it on the sidewalk in front of us while we’re like, what? I trusted you, why would you do that?

I literally told you not to break my heart, and you just did exactly what I asked you not to do. Many of us relate to the Tortured Poets Department. We feel in our bones what Taylor Swift was singing and most likely weeping about.

This search for love, this quest for love. The feeling that you get when you believe that you have absolutely found it and it just slips through your fingers.

When you believe that what glittered for you was gold and you find out, no, it was simply glitter. And if you have not felt any of those things, okay, wow. Oh, are you sure you haven’t made someone else feel that way?

That’s not an accusation. I just know personally, I have. Personally, I have been in love three times, but I have thought that I was in love five or six times.

I have been infatuated with someone who did not feel the same way about me. I have been obsessed with somebody who was obsessed with me and then changed their mind.

I projected my own feelings onto a person who was a completely blank slate and gave me no indication that they felt about me the way I felt about them.

And I have been shifty and dismissive with other people’s feelings because I knew that they were an option, but not my only option, not my first choice or even my second. This is not something that I’m proud of, but this is true.

And I have to say once again, 0% of my exes speak to me. Not a one of them speaks to me. What is the common denominator in that?

Me, me.

I am the common denominator for none of your exes.

To have any contact with you, there’s something. There was something, many things wrong with me and with the way that I treated people and with what I thought love was, with how I thought it worked.

There’s a letter that I love that John Steinbeck wrote to his son. His son was at boarding school, had just fallen in love for the first time, had written to his dad and said, you know, I’ve fallen in love.

I’ve read parts of this letter out loud at weddings when I’ve officiated them, because I think that this letter gets so clearly to the heart of what love is.

And it’s the kind of thing that I could have benefited from hearing when I was young and I was in love for the first time. So I’m gonna read parts of this letter to you.

Also, it has to be such a nightmare to be at the level of fame that you know that someday someone could publish your letters in a book. Your diaries. Like, when I die, don’t do that.

Don’t do that. I’m saying right now, if you, my heirs, whoever says Nora’s dead, let’s publish all the things that are in her boxes and her desk. I’m gonna haunt you.

I’m gonna haunt you and it won’t be a friendly haunting. It will be horror movie haunting. And you’ll know because I will be a direct communicator as a ghost.

In life, I might be passive aggressive. In death, I will be aggressive. I will say, you shouldn’t have done that.

You shouldn’t have done that. I said on a podcast not to do it and you did it anyway. But anyways, let’s read another dead person’s letter because I want to.

So he writes to his son, there are several kinds of love. One is a selfish, mean, grasping, egotistical thing, which uses love for self-importance. This is the ugly and crippling kind.

The other is an outpouring of everything good in you, of kindness and consideration and respect. Not only the social respect of manners, but the greater respect, which is recognition of another person as unique and valuable.

The first kind can make you sick and small and weak, but the second can release in you strength and courage and goodness and even wisdom you didn’t know you had. Finally, he closes the letter by saying, and don’t worry about losing.

If it is right, it happens. The main thing is not to hurry. Nothing good gets away.

Now, I had a lot of experience with that first kind of love, that kind that is really not love. If you ask me, that grasping, the meanness, the selfishness, mine and others. But the real love that I’ve experienced was different.

It was easier. It was kinder. It was just healthier.

I wasn’t pretending to be someone that I’m not. I just felt safe. There was trust and that trust was protected, that trust was valued.

And love requires of us a lot of trust. It requires us to believe that the person we love is who they say they are and that they will do the things that they say they will do.

It requires us to trust ourselves, to listen to the intuition that tells us whether someone is truly safe for us. I mean, I know people say, trust your gut. And I’m like, have you met my gut?

I have IBS. I know that’s too much information, but it’s like my gut, I don’t want to listen. You don’t want to listen to my gut.

I don’t want to listen to my gut. But things happen there that should stay in the shadows, is what I’m saying.

But really, love does require so much trust, and requires us to honor the trust that somebody else has put into us and into any relationship that we have with them, romantic or otherwise. And that is easy to do when things are good.

It is very hard to do when someone hurts you, when your trust has been violated, when you have been betrayed, when someone is careless with your heart, your emotions, and really with your time on this earth.

When you think about it, it is a miracle that any of us ever find love at all. The amount of people, I don’t believe in just like one, like there’s not just one soulmate, like let’s get real.

Like there’s so many people that you could like get along with it, that you could like feel romantically towards, like, you know, love grows, attraction grows.

But of all the people that might fit that bill, you have to cross paths with them on a day that you’re like into it, that you feel your best, that you’re on your own. Like so many variables have to fall in place for us to find another person.

I actually think it’s pretty bananas that any of us have ever found love or companionship when you really think about what it takes, not just to meet but to build a relationship and sustain that relationship.

Good job if you’ve done that for any amount of time. Kind of nuts. I’ve been thinking a lot about all of this, obviously.

I’ve been thinking about relationships. I’ve been thinking about trust because of today’s caller, Jess, because Jess has had that first kind of love, that mean, egotistical, the fake love. She has been betrayed.

And she is having a hard time believing that after everything that she’s been through, everything that she has learned and experienced, that she has found that second kind of love, that she has the real thing.

So let’s get to our conversation with today’s caller, Jess.

Hello?

Hi, is this Jess?

Yeah.

Hi, it’s Nora McInerny.

Hi.

Hi, is this a good time?

Yeah.

Okay, good, good. Excuse me, let me just cough into your ear as loud as I can.

I’m probably gonna do the same thing. I’m getting over COVID, so no worries.

Oh my God, okay. I’m not getting over COVID, I’m getting over just a disgusting man on an airplane just coughing into his hands, touching everything. And I just knew when I looked at him, I was like, I should have worn a mask on this plane.

I really should have, but I was being vain and I didn’t want to get acne, and I paid the piper, and I have been paying the piper for that. So, you know, touching things, Jess, that he did not need to touch. He didn’t need to touch any of this stuff.

It is hung around. It’s not COVID. It’s simply Ick.

That’s all I have.

I have Ick.

Yeah.

I had that like two months ago. It was like, yeah, it was like a two month Ick. I feel for you.

It was like, oh, God, like my kids have it.

I’m like, God, great, great, great, great, great, great. But enough about me, enough about me. Let’s talk about you.

Oh, God.

OK. I did sign up for this.

Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God, she says with a heavy sigh.

Oh, God.

OK. I did volunteer for this. I do acknowledge.

I think it would be even better if I just started spam calling random people.

But we’ll start with you, because yes, you did sign up for this.

OK. Yeah.

You signed up for this. And then I had to move it two days because we got home from a three day weekend and then learned that for one of our kids, it was a four day weekend. And I was like, cool.

Good. Yes. Yeah.

I can definitely roll with that. So here we are. Here we are.

OK. Yeah. So what were you going to talk about before I put you on the spot?

Oh, no.

What I wrote in was like, how come being in a healthy relationship after the string of not healthy ones is actually maybe harder?

Oh, OK. So tell me about this relationship that you’re in.

So the timing could not have been funnier. So I actually got laid off from my last job about like four days before I met this guy. And me like in an effort of growth actually told him, like normally I wouldn’t have told him.

Yeah.

And I also normally probably would have canceled because it’s like, oh, I’m not perfect.

I can’t be dating. But I went anyway.

And that’s the standard. You simply cannot date until you are perfect. That’s yes.

A woman must be perfect.

A woman must be perfect.

A man can be a project. A woman must be fully formed. Exactly.

And on a growth trajectory, if she’s to date, but a man, it’s better if he’s a broken bird or a puppy with a thorn in his paw or something. Yes.

No, no, no. Yeah. So I was not in a present with a bow, but I was like, okay, we’ll go.

So I was six months out of a three-plus year relationship and had done a lot of work and thought I was ready to just start dating. Like wasn’t necessarily trying to do the jump, but we went on a date and it was just, I mean, he asked me questions.

Like, first of all, the bar is on the floor.

The bar is so dreary. The bar has been…

The bar is in hell.

The bar actually fell through the crust of the earth. And wow, asked you questions. I know.

But honestly, I know that feeling. You’re like, why am I having fun? Oh, because I get to talk.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like it was both ways. Like if anything, he made me talk more than I’m used to.

So I was like, this is shocking. I feel like I’m on a podcast in a great way. Like we’re just by, it was wonderful.

And then pretty much have been dating ever since. And that’s been about five months or so. And so he’s like, he’s in therapy.

He’s emotionally intelligent. He cares about me. It’s wild.

I think you’re on mute.

Workday is starting to sound the same.

I think you’re on mute.

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But I just keep finding myself like I don’t like using this term because I feel like it’s been used into oblivion, but like getting triggered by things that happen and then it has to take a while for me to realize what’s triggering me and then work

backwards from there and trying really hard to not let that affect the way I treat him because this is a good thing and I don’t want to like fuck it up. So yeah, that’s where we’re at.

So what are some of those moments?

What I think might be the most annoying part is how fuzzy they are. I don’t know how to describe it. I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced this where like, it’s like, is it them or is it me or is it a little bit of both?

And you just kind of have to like, I put it out of my brain for a while, but the subconscious deal with it.

But it’s like, you know, if he’s not perfectly attentive for a day or, you know, we spend time together, but he’s really also we’re long distance, so we don’t have a lot of time in person together.

So if we have a day in person and he’s more quiet just because he’s tired, I’m taking that as disinterest and not caring.

Yes, yeah.

And a lot of things like that.

Yeah. How far is the long distance? Like how long is the distance?

Two hours.

Two hours, okay.

So that’s not horrible, right? That’s not horrible.

No, it’s not.

It’s not like, I just had to, I’m gonna be fairly honest with you, Jess. I was just making sure you weren’t in a 90 day fiance situation.

Oh my God.

I was digging and I was hoping that you weren’t gonna be like, well.

We never met.

Yeah. We actually, you know, he can’t turn his camera on for some reason, but-

It’s so weird.

We’re so connected other than that.

I met his family on the third date. So no, not one of those.

I love that. Yeah.

I’m too primed, I think, to cut and run a little bit.

So like, this isn’t the focus of it, but yeah, I have been in an emotionally, physically abusive relationship, and then was in one where he was just, avoidance was the name of the game, and emotionally inattentive all the way.

And then was also, you know, through therapy realized was raised by a narcissistic man. So then you’re just like, I think I’m just always looking for like, the shoe is about to drop, therefore I need to get out.

Yeah, I got to get out before it drops on me.

Yeah.

I know it’s so hard to let yourself be like, happy or just… Yeah.

I think also if you’re used to, in my experience, if you are used to kind of like, fight or flight, relationships being difficult, relationships being like confrontational, or, you know, in your case, abusive, then it’s like, it’s just hard to trust

something that isn’t a boat that isn’t constantly rocking. And it’s hard not to just be like, I’m just gonna rock up myself a little bit, just to see, just to see.

Like, let me find where the holes are first, so that I can be on top of it, instead of waiting to like, figure out, oh, there is an issue, like, I’m constantly, I think, a little bit too much looking for the issue, rather than just letting it be and

Yeah, and letting it just be like whatever it is, and maybe it’s forever, and maybe it’s for now, and maybe it’s like, like, let it be whatever it is.

What, and, but it’s so hard to do. It’s so hard to do.

Yeah, you feel weird, because you’re just like claw gripping it. You’re like, no, don’t.

Yeah, yeah, and it’s like, I don’t know if you could, if your self from like three years ago, and you were in that horrible relationship, could see you today. Like, what do you think she would think of you, your life in this relationship?

She would probably be pretty surprised, because three years ago, I would say I was like a solid year into the one, the one relationship, which was not good, but not the awful one.

So I think I’d be so surprised and a little confused, like, oh, he wasn’t the one, and oh, this one’s better. And oh, you like live on your own again. And it was, you know, last year was a lot.

We like broke up. I moved out from a couple of other things happened. I lost the job.

I got a new job, got a new relationship. So I would definitely be very surprised.

You’d be like, I’m sorry, what? Like, I’m sorry, who’s this guy? Okay.

Respectfully, who’s he? Okay. Where are you going to work today?

What’s happening?

He lives in Illinois. What are you doing?

Yeah, what are you doing? What state are you in?

I’m in Bloomington, Indiana. He’s in like middle of nowhere, Illinois. So he’s pretty much exactly two hours west of me.

The only thing that does kind of suck some days is he’s on Central and I’m on Eastern time, but you figure it out.

I think that’s time zones. We got to stop.

An absolute little pizzazz. It really does.

Like, how is Indiana on Eastern time?

I don’t know.

What are you talking about?

I don’t know. And I’m from the East Coast, so my family is all on Eastern. In the summer here, it’s light out to like 10 p.m.

Yeah, yeah.

It’s weird. You’re like, East is East. It’s not.

I mean, because I had a bone to pick when I lived in Ohio for college. I was like, you can’t call yourself the Midwest and be on East Coast time.

That’s just not right. Where did you go to school?

That’s not right. I went to Xavier University in Cincinnati, Ohio.

Okay.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for why?

I couldn’t tell you. I didn’t want to go to college. I was not ready to go to college.

I just got a brochure, I thought you did, though. toured, went, blacked out most of it, and here we are today. Like, ugh, good.

How old are you, Jess?

I am 34.

34, a baby, a zygote.

Is that what you would say?

I really would. I really would.

That’s really funny.

I think, yeah, I just think, only now, I’m 42. Right? Yeah.

Yes. I think it should just be, after 40, you should just be going by fives. So it’s like 40, and then only 45.

So it should just be 40 till I’m 45, 45 till I’m 50. That’s how I think we should be doing it. I’m on board with that.

42 is not an age. 43 is not an age. 44 is not an age.

46? Not really. 47?

Not really. But it’s like I only now am like, oh, this one life, baby, this is it. There’s not going to be another portal opening to suck me into a parallel universe, which is, I think how I’ve, I don’t know.

I just, I don’t know how to articulate this other than to think like-

I think I know what you mean, though.

When I was 34, I was like, well, it could just be, I don’t know, something else, something else might happen and it might, you know, and it did in a lot of different ways. But it’s also like, oh no, it all adds up to this, where we are.

Yeah. I was just talking to my best friend yesterday about this. And we’re the same age.

She has two kids, has been married for years, and with her partner for like 10 years. Here I am in a fresh baby relationship, no kids, not sure if I even want kids.

No idea what I’m doing with my life, but both like, it’s fine, but also what the fuck is happening.

Yes, exactly. It’s fine. And also what?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I met Erin, it was in like my late 20s, and I thought that was so old. Like, what are you talking about?

I was truly, and I remember just like pushing against things that weren’t there to push on. Like having, like trying to produce a manufacture conflict that was meant for an ex-boyfriend, and him being like, what?

Like, and just not taking the bait and being like, what? And I was like, oh, I just, never mind. Like, and then being kind of like embarrassed by it, and just being like, I’ve just never had someone like me.

I can’t trust that you like me.

No, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. Thank God I have therapy on Friday. But I think it boils down to like, oh, you’re not gonna leave in the middle of the night for no reason.

Like, I do need to talk to him about it because I didn’t have formulated thoughts yet, but I think, I don’t know if it’s a woman thing.

I think it’s a woman thing where we feel like we have to reach this point of like, okay, I can kind of take my mask off and you can actually see me now, and I need to make sure you’re not going to run off.

And it’s not like there’s anything hideous under there. It’s just like, I’m a little sassy sometimes. And I have got some issues, but who doesn’t?

I don’t know if it’s just a woman thing because I’ve only ever been a woman, but I’m like nodding along because, yeah, that pressure to be absolutely perfect, you know?

And, you know, like the first time, like when you sleep with someone, you’re like, you’ve shaved. Shaved like above the knee. You’re shaving like your toes.

You’re shaving like, you know, it’s like after a couple of months, it’s like now I’m like, look, be grateful that I took my bra off.

Okay. Oh, seriously. Yep.

Like, and I don’t know, it’s like, that’s the hard thing about love and allowing yourself to be loved is that you have to, like let someone see like your soft parts and you’re going to give somebody like access to you.

And that means like opening yourself up to potential pain, but also like opening yourself up to like what it means to be loved, which is to be seen.

Yeah, which is what everyone wants, but it’s also to me the most terrifying thing.

Yeah, even though you’re like you said, you’re like, there’s nothing bad under the mask.

But if you feel like when you take your mask off, you have to have blemish free skin and breath that always smells good and never have, you know, a mental breakdown over something seeming small. It’s so hard to be a person. It’s so hard.

I’m like, I’m looking at hummingbirds right now. I’m like, damn, they really got it made. They’re drinking the sugar water I made for them, living their lives.

Yeah, I’m looking at my dog sleeping on my bed.

You think your dog, like, should your dog ever enter a relationship?

Should your dog ever meet someone that sparks their interest? Do you think your dog is like, wow, I hope my butt smells perfect today? No, your dog is like, no, look, that’s the smell.

That’s what you’re getting. Put your nose up there. I’ll sniff yours.

And then we’re together. That’s it.

Yeah, no, you’re right.

Yeah, it’s so hard for us. Like, I think we might be the dumbest animals.

But I think we’ve over-thought ourselves into oblivion. Honestly, like, we are too aware, I think, at this point. And I would like to dial back my brain at times.

For sure.

I would appreciate that. I would appreciate reprogramming to be like, OK, I want to have, and which I guess, you know, is a part of therapy, too, to be like, to stop myself and say, like, I don’t have to think that thought.

And sometimes I say that out loud to myself, which is so embarrassing. But I will be, I’ll be like, no. And I’ll sometimes be in public and be like, no.

And people will look at me like, sorry, I was just thinking a thought I didn’t have to think. Sorry, I just thought about my whole family dying for no reason.

Oh, no, that’s the skill to just be like, I’m running, I’m running down this rabbit hole in my brain of, it’s not going to work. He’s not trying. He doesn’t care.

It’s over. I might as well just cut and run. And I’m trying to just be like, cut it out.

No.

I remember being at the public pool with my friend Chelsea. Shout out to Chelsea. And we were talking about something.

And we were talking about relationships. And we were talking about all these same things, honestly. Just like, what if this happens and what if that happens?

And we ended that conversation by being like, what if we just say to ourselves, like, oh, what if it all works out? Like, what if instead of thinking that, we think of like, oh, like, we’re like, oh, I don’t know if that’s us.

Yeah.

Did you watch the show, This Is Us?

I did, yeah.

Okay, Randall and his wife would do that exercise. And I think about it often where, especially if they’re anxious about something with the kid, they’re like, okay, worst case scenario, what is it?

And they just say it and they’re like, okay, we’re gonna move on now. And I thought that was really cool.

Yeah. The worst case scenario is like, it doesn’t work out and you are still a beautiful, capable person on this planet who knows that she has the capacity of love and who always has her own back and has an amazing best friend.

Me. Yeah. Yes.

You actually, I wanted to make a point to tell you this. I have been listening to you for years. You have literally been a voice in my brain for years.

And you like your stories that you’ve told have helped me get through a lot of shit. So thank you.

Thank you. I truly like it’s, I love doing this version of the podcast. And I love, you know, when we have been able to tour and stuff like that, because it only feels real in like these moments.

Otherwise, you know what I mean? Otherwise, it’s like just, you’re like, I don’t know, I made something and maybe someone heard it and maybe they didn’t. I don’t know, like maybe, maybe someone cared and maybe they didn’t.

And like, that really does like mean so much. Like that is really cool to.

Yeah, no, I really, I value it a lot. So when I saw this, I’m like, oh, it would be cool to chat. But do you want to know the, I guess, the pettiest, funniest part of what’s bothering me with this whole situation?

Yes, yes, yes.

It’s so silly.

So we have not said I love you yet. And I’ve said it first in every relationship I’ve been in, except for like my high school one, which doesn’t count.

And therefore, I have dug my heels in and I don’t want to say it first because for some reason that makes sense in my head. And so I’m not saying it. He’s not saying it.

We’ve said everything else. Like you’re my favorite person. You’re so important to me.

I care about you so much. I like you a lot. Like we’re both tiptoeing around it.

And I’m just holding back.

Yeah. That’s okay. I don’t think that’s petty.

Is it?

I don’t think that’s petty.

I think that’s fine. I like, I think that’s fine. I think it’s fine.

It’s, it’ll happen and maybe someday it’ll just pop out of you, you know? But I forced Matthew to propose to me. We had a kid.

We had a house. We like all lived together with all four children. But because I proposed to Erin and didn’t have an engagement ring, because I also was like, I was very cool.

At the time, I was like, I want to ring, like grow up.

Yeah.

It’s like, no, I’m like beyond that. I would like rather have nothing. But I was like, I want to ring and I want you to like beg on your feet, on your knees to marry me.

And he was like, okey okey, okey doke. Like the weirdest thing I’ve ever done. But, you know, I just I wanted it.

I wanted it.

And he was like, okey, okey, okey.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I think that’s fine.

I think that’s fine. It’s it’ll happen when it happens. And like one of you will say it and it will be imperfect and perfect.

Yeah, I don’t think you have to judge yourself for that. It’s OK. It’s OK to want something and be like, I want this, like, you know.

Fair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I think I like it’s almost I’ve almost said it multiple times. So it could very well happen. And that would be fine, too.

I think I’m just. Yeah, being stubborn in my own way.

Yeah.

But also, I think everybody wants that sign from their person. That’s like, yeah, no, I’m in this.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t know why there’s some programming within women that says, like, we, the value of the relationship is how much you are pursued.

And, you know, the strength of a relationship is based on being pursued. And, you know, I have always had to battle that within myself. And then also when I hear people say, you know, like, oh, but I really want to be engaged.

Oh, but I really want to get married. I’m like, ask him, like, say it, you know, like, Matthew and I talked about it before he proposed. I was like, like, if we’re going to get married, we should probably do that.

And, you know, but like, you have to buy me this ring and propose. You know what I mean? It’s like, it’s like, I do think that there’s like a power in saying how you feel and what you want.

But there is I fully understand, though, that like programming that’s like, but he has to say it, he has to say it.

Otherwise, it’s not real.

Otherwise, it’s not real. Otherwise, I pushed it, or I forced it.

Yeah, and it’s not real, and I’ll question it for the rest of my life.

Yeah, and it’s like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, what are you talking about? And I was in that position with Erin, which is so weird, because like, of course we loved each other.

Like, you know what I mean? And I just remember being like, but I want him to say it, like, I want him to say it. And my friend Tyler said, he was like, just say it, just say it.

I said it, I said it, he just shouted to his wife. He’s like, I said it, and it changed my whole life. It’s gonna change your life.

And yeah, and I remember I told Erin, he was like, I love you too, of course I do. And I was like, oh, okay, well. Like, okay, well, that’s cool.

That’s great, that’s great. Good to know, good to know. Yeah.

I don’t know, in my last relationship, the very avoidant one, I said it first, we were like six months in. I remember it was New Year’s Eve. And I was like, fuck this, I’m not holding it in any longer.

You love someone, you should tell them. We’re going to bed. And I was like, okay, good night.

I love you. And he goes, I love you too. Rolled over, fell asleep.

The experiences have been varied.

Yeah. Yeah, and you want like, I don’t know, I think it’s okay to know what you want. But also, he also has to know what you want and be like, I need to be, I want to feel pursued and seen and all these things and so much to put on another person.

And also, it’s worse in my experience to have these expectations that you’ve never expressed to somebody and then be disappointed that they didn’t jump through a hoop that they didn’t know was there.

They didn’t read your mind.

Yeah, but then, because also, all the brain poison will tell you, but you never have to explain yourself to someone you love. And it’s like, yes, you do. You have to explain yourself to literally everybody.

Yeah, you do. And they’ll get it, or they won’t, if they’re not the right person. Or they don’t always get it, but they’ll try to get it or respect you for it.

It’s just so, there’s a lot, Jess. And this is like, all this stuff didn’t come out of nowhere. It’s like all the programming of every movie and song and relationship all added up and like mixed in to your own, like, dumb head computer.

This is so hard. It’s like, I’m happy for you. I’m glad you met this guy who like wants to know you.

And I want you to be happy. I want you to let yourself be happy.

I appreciate that. I think, yeah, the last thing I’ll say, I don’t know if anyone’s ever described this to you, but when you’ve been through, I would say grief is a big part of it, but also so much manipulation from like narcissistic abuse.

It really makes you question reality. And it’s something I’m still figuring out and years of therapy of, I cannot trust my own perception of my life at times. And I feel like I don’t know if this is real or if I’m allowed to feel this way or not.

So I really struggle bringing things up.

I don’t know how to say it in a profound way, but it’s really hard for me to bring things up in a relationship because it’s either going to be a fight, it’s going to be flipped on me, or it’s going to be a problem.

So I think that it will be, my therapist always says, repetition, like bring it up, see how it goes. He’s probably going to be fine because everything’s been fine so far, and it has to happen a hundred times. And then you’ll maybe start to trust it.

But I think that is probably the hardest piece of not being able to replay a moment in your head and think, oh, is that actually real, or is that how it played out, or not?

Yeah. Was that real? And like, yeah, like you said, it’s like you had somebody who didn’t see you and hurt you deeply and manipulated you and made you doubt what was happening.

Like that is, that’s like not a small thing to just sort of, like, bop your brain and just be like, like, oh, but you’re nice.

Like, yeah. Okay, fine. Yeah, it’s just not that easy.

It’s not.

I’m already not a very, I don’t like to be vulnerable with people.

Like I’ll show people a certain amount and then I’m pretty reserved, especially men or like in a relationship and stuff. And so it’s that next part of opening up.

When’s the next time you guys are hanging out?

Oh, he comes here tomorrow. We’re going to a concert. We’re going to see his brother and sister-in-law.

Do you know this band Houndmouth? You might have heard of them since you were around here.

I have not.

They’re from Kentucky or southern Indiana. They’re like, I don’t know what to call them, indie rock-ish. They’re not huge, but they tour and they, there’s this lovely dive bar in Bloomington called The Blue Bird that they play.

And it’s a good time.

Oh, that’s so cool. It’s like, I mean, look at your life. Like this guy’s taking you to a show with like his brother and sister-in-law.

I know.

You know?

And that’s why I know he’s not interested in you.

I have a note on my phone to remind myself, like all the nice shit he says and the things he’s done. And I still read that. I’m like, but that’s like not that.

That’s not real.

He probably changed his mind. Yeah, yeah. When he said it was beautiful and amazing and the perfect woman, he was lying.

He’s a really good liar, like yeah.

He said, he signed the Valentine’s Day card. First of all, he got me a Valentine’s Day card. Second, he said, you’ve brought so much joy and happiness into my life.

And I’m like, that’s a cop out. He’s saying that because he doesn’t actually like me.

My God, I hate that scene.

I’m doing fine.

I hate your brain. Happy Valentine’s Day. We’ll see about that.

We’ll see about that. Thanks for bringing joy to my life, liar.

You don’t mean it.

Oh, God. God, God, God.

Sorry to drop that on you, but…

I just did my makeup. You can’t make me laugh, cry. It’s not good.

Don’t let me do it. Okay, well, happy therapy tomorrow. I wish you so much happiness.

Let yourself be as happy as possible this weekend. And thank you so much.

Oh, thank you. You too.

You’re a delight. And I actually mean that. Okay?

Oh, I do too.

Okay, good.

Good. And I believe you. I believe you.

Good.

We are believing things. It’s great.

Okay. Believe. We’re gonna believe every compliment we get today.

Hell yeah.

Okay.

Bye.

So for all this talk about trusting someone else, we need to say again that love also means trusting yourself and also trusting the process because all of life requires that of us.

All of life requires so much trust. We drive our cars, and we check our mirrors, we look over our shoulders, I still do that. I will never just trust a camera or a mirror.

I was taught to drive by BART’s Suburban Driving School on the edge of Minneapolis. It was still urban, so I don’t know why he called it the Suburban Driving School. I look over.

I look through every window. I’m not switching lanes unless I’m sure that nobody is in my blind spot.

We check, but we also trust that people are going to stay relatively close to the speed limit, that people are going to stay on their side of the road, that people are going to stop when the light is red, go when it is green.

I mean, all of us wake up and we go about our days trusting in various ways in the world around us. And if we can’t relax into our worlds, we really cannot enjoy our lives.

And if we can’t relax into our relationships, I don’t think we can really experience love. Because when you’re always waiting for the other shoe to drop, you aren’t ever fully where you are.

If you’re always concerned about the future, you can’t really enjoy the present. You’re not living in the moment when you’re worried about a potential next moment. And I just don’t think that’s really a good way to live.

And even though I believe in therapy and self-reflection and knowing yourself, I also don’t think that love is just reserved for people who have achieved some kind of like emotional homeostasis.

I do not believe that you have to go through a full self-improvement process and be like the best version of yourself before you find love. I was never the best version of myself when I found love. Love found me when I was really not at my best.

You know, my current husband, Matthew, I met him when I was very, very, very much like deeply grieving my first husband, Aaron. And Matthew was divorced, you know, and he’d done a lot of work on himself, I should say. And I’d done work on myself.

We learned a lot about ourselves in our past relationships. We learned a lot about relationships, about love. We learned from those experiences.

And us falling in love did not require either of us to be perfect. We were both very much works in progress, but it did require us to have patience with ourselves. And with the other person, it required a lot of communication.

It did require trust. And that really was and still is like the easiest thing for me to give in this relationship. I really have never wondered if he is telling me one thing and thinking another.

I don’t question his motives. I have never worried about him hurting me. I don’t wait for the other shoe to drop at all.

If it does, like, okay, okay, you got me, you got me. What that shoe is doing though is like literally none of my business. It will be my business if it falls on my head, but until then, I’m just not looking.

I think the Bible says, like love is patient, love is kind, love is weird. It is so weird. It’s so weird.

Just the concept that we do it at all is so weird.

And if you will allow me to plagiarize myself because I don’t remember where I wrote this, but I know I wrote something like this, which is I do not believe that we are meant to get through this world with our hearts perfectly intact.

I do not believe that we can bubble wrap ourselves against future pain. I think that the point of life and love is to open ourselves up to the experience and love is such a risk.

When we love somebody, anybody, we are risking being known, we are risking being hurt, and our hearts are not meant to stay in perfect condition. Like they are collector’s items, like they are supposed to be used.

And that does mean taking on risk, taking on pain, living with scars, living with heartbreak, and learning, learning from those experiences.

And it means trusting, you know, like it means trusting that you are worthy of good things, that you have learned and grown from what hurt you, and that where you have been is not where you will always be.

So for anyone who is listening to this and is struggling with trusting themselves, trusting love, I want you to remember that second definition of love from Steinbeck.

I want you to know that you are worthy of the kind of love that is an outpouring of everything good in you, of kindness and consideration and respect, the kind that releases in you strength and courage and goodness and wisdom that you didn’t even

know you had. Because you do have it. I’m Nora McInerny. This is Thanks For Asking.

We are a call-in show about what matters to you, and we love getting your calls, we love getting your texts. The number is 612-568-4441.

We’re an independent podcast, and so what you are doing when you listen to the show is really supporting us, sharing this show is supporting us. If you want to, no pressure, I’m the worst salesperson ever.

We do have a paid way to support the show and get ad-free. We don’t do it on Apple, we don’t do it anywhere else, we literally just do it on my Substack, which is noraborialis.substack.com.

You can get all the archives of terrible Thanks For Asking, you can get all the episodes of Thanks For Asking, you can comment, we’ve got a nice little community of listeners there.

And if you support us at the highest level, which is a supporting producer level, you get your name in the credit. So it is time for me to thank our supporting producers.

I’m talking about Ben, Jess, Michelle Toms, Tom Stockburger, Jen, Beth Derry, Stacey DeMoro. I’ve got to zoom this up. I even have my glasses on.

I can’t read this. Like, what do I have to do? I probably have to make the type bigger.

Where are we? Stacey DeMoro, Emily Ferriso, Stephanie Johnson, Faye Barons, Amanda, Sarah Garifo, Jennifer McDagle in all caps, Elia Feliz-Milan, I just love that name, Lindsay Lund, great alliteration, Renee Kepke, Chelsea Ciernek.

I’m gonna type it in, cause she’s S here, but I know who you are. Car Pan, I know you typed that in as like an abbreviation for your real name. I’m never changing it.

Car Pan is how you shall be known. LGS, Stacey Wilson, Courtney McCown, Kaylee Sakai, Mary Beth Berry, Joe Theodosopoulos. Such Greek names are so satisfying to me.

If I can say a Greek name first try, I can do anything that day. Mad, Abby Arouse, A-R-A-U-Z. Someone help me.

Elizabeth Berkley, Kim F, Melody Swinford, Val, Lauren Hanna, Katie, Jessica Latexier, Crystal Mann, Lisa Piven, Kate Lyon, Christina, Sarah David, Kate Beyerjohn, Erin John, Joy Pollock, Crystal, Jennifer Pavelka, Jess Blackwell, Micah, Jessica

Reed, Beth Lippem, Kiara, Jill MacDonald, Jen Grimlin, Alexis Lane, David Binkley, Kathy Hamm, Virginia Labassi, Lizzie DeVries, Jeremy Essin, Anne Dobrzynski, Robin Roulard, Nicole Petey, Monica, Caroline Moss, my best friend, Rachel Walton, Inga,

Bonnie Robinson, Shannon Dominguez-Stevens, Penny Pesta, I love saying the name Penny Pesta. Penny Pesta, where are you? Who are you? I love your name, you’re perfect.

Kaylee, Dave Gilmore, college best friend, Jacqueline Ryder, and that is the whole team. Thank you for being supporting producers. Thank you for listening to this show.

Thank you for calling. Thank you for today’s caller, Being So Brave, sharing her story with us. Like, you do deserve love.

You do deserve good things. I want you to believe that in your heart because I know it to be true, and I’ve never been wrong. So why would I start now?

Oh, we are a production of Feelings & Co. The team here is Marcel Malekibu, who produced this episode, Grace Berry, who left us to go work corporate for a while, then came back. We love it, thank god for her.

The music, our opening theme music is Joffrey Lamar Wilson. You should go listen to his band Lamar. They are amazing.

You will love them. Closing theme music, what you’re hearing right now is by my young son Q. He has been dabbling in music.

He’s been working garage band like any good little boy, and he’s working on some new tunes for us. So stay tuned because we might have a new theme song, but I really have to limit it because he does charge me a licensing fee.

And I’m saying that’s fair. Pay artists, you know.

I’m not trying to get into a Scooter Braun, Taylor Swift situation with him, but there’s only so much that mom can afford because he acts as though tariffs are being enacted on garage band songs by eight year olds.

He’s like, how much should you pay for the last one? They said $100. And he’s like, ah, this one’s probably going to be 200?

It’s going to be 200. Okay, okay. Fair-ish, but you know, I can’t have a new song every week at that rate.

That’s, I can’t. And I think you understand that. Okay.

All right. Thanks everyone. You are the best.

Bye.