Help! I Was Dumped By A Widow

People are clumsy when it comes to widows – we’ve made a handful of episodes about just how clumsy we can be. But we don’t often talk about how widows can be clumsy with others, too. In today’s episode, we meet caller Alex, who met her dream man on Hinge. He was emotionally available, kind, and very interested in her. He made her feel safe and valued and important, which made Alex feel like she was finally with the right guy.

The only complication? His wife had died a year earlier. And Alex, despite her best efforts, can’t help but feel like she is being constantly compared to his dead wife and that she has to suppress her feelings in favor of his “bigger” loss. In this episode, Nora and Alex break down their relationship, their breakup, and the complications of grief and dating.

 

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

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Hi, how are you there? Hi. Hi.

Hey, Nora.

I’m Nora McInerny, and this is Thanks For Asking, a call-in show about what matters to you.

So some time ago, I did a Q&A on Instagram. I like to do these specifically when I’m traveling because I have the time, and it helps me kill time, it helps me fill time.

So I put up a question box on Instagram, and people can put whatever they want in there. This day, I said, let’s chat? And I got a message that said, Widower broke up with me.

Melty emoji face. IDK if it’s grief or if he doesn’t want me, should I reach out? I replied publicly and just said, no.

But that was not what Alex wanted to hear. So Alex left me a voicemail. Hi.

Well, this might be batshit, but I guess I’m just gonna overshare on a podcast because I’m going crazy.

And I was DMing with you about this. And you told me to call it in. So I’m in a breakup right now.

And I don’t know if his best friend is a woman who might be listening to this. But you know what? Whatever.

So I was dating a widow, widower man who is a widow for a couple of months. And it was the best relationship I’ve ever been in. And I was really, really falling for him.

And I think, I’m pretty sure he felt the same way. His wife died of cancer, just incredibly tragic. And yeah, it was really, really hard grief stuff.

And I, I, you know, I can’t, I don’t understand. I haven’t lost anyone that close to me before. But I tried really hard.

And you know, like things progressed. Like I got an invite to, to the late wife’s sister’s wedding. And there was lots of future plans made.

I was asked to be his girlfriend. I just thought everything was going really, really well. And I definitely like can be an anxious girly.

And that came out a few times in ways that I’m not the most proud of. But he told me he wanted to work through that with me. And I was the first person that he like really felt like he wanted to be serious with after his wife’s death.

It was about a year before we started dating. So not that long. But I think I am just swirling on, like the break up was just very sudden, very unexpected.

I had thought everything was pretty hunky dory. We had just spent a whole weekend together, Merry Christmas Day. And, you know, it was great.

And then I kind of noticed I’m like shutting down a little bit, and I kind of rushed in to fill the space, like I sometimes do, didn’t even realize I was doing it.

And then just kind of one morning, found him and he just was like really anxious, and was like, I can’t do this. I missed my wife, and I also have some concerns about you.

And I just wasn’t sure if it was the grief talking, or if it was genuinely like him not being into this, or a mix of both, or what. But it just felt so real and so good, and like we both really wanted it at one point.

And I don’t know what it’s like to try to date with grief brain.

And then she left another voicemail.

Okay, I’m too verbose. This is the girl who is dating the widow. We can go to part two.

I’m going to try to wrap it up. I feel like I need to explain all the details, so you really understand. Anyway, it’s been a couple of weeks since we’ve been broken up.

We’ve talked a little bit and he kind of just said, I just don’t have the capacity, like the things that came up for us. I just expected after going through intense lifetimes that a new relationship would be easy, and I just don’t think that’s true.

I think that especially when you’ve got this much trauma and you’re in your mid to late thirties, like relationships are going to take some work, but I can’t make someone want to do the work that it requires. I understand that, but I’m just very sad.

I don’t want him out of my life. I really care about him so, so much and my therapist might be a little bit toxic, but she told me that I should just tell him how I feel.

We could have de-escalated this or we could have taken a step back or like, I don’t know, she thinks I should get clear on whether that would be an option or whether the door would be open in the future.

All my friends are telling me, nope, he broke up with you, it’s over, stay away, get in space and I’ve been trying to do that. But I don’t know, I’m just like lost. I feel like he was just so special and I think he thought I was special too.

He told me that and I mean, I guess he would say that but I don’t know. This one really felt just so special and I don’t know, I’m still spinning on it a bit.

It was just so sudden and felt to me like out of nowhere, and I’m feeling a lot of shame about the little mistakes I made, but I don’t know if those little mistakes feel like this relationship ending, or if those were normal and he just can’t handle

the normal. I don’t know. I just don’t know. But I’m sad.

I don’t know if I should reach out to try to say like, I’m here, we can de-escalate this, or we can be friends, or I just care about you, or this is how I feel. I’m standing on this. I’m going insane.

I should probably just let this go, but I would just love your perspective. I’ve been dying for your perspective on this. I just think you’d have such a good take.

This is possibly the most embarrassing thing I’ve ever done. But I think you love you. Bye.

Then, just to be thorough, she sent this text message to wrap it all up.

Hi, Nora. I’d love some advice. I’m a 34-year-old woman looking to find my person.

I met an amazing man, 37, and a widower of a little over a year. He lost his partner of many years to cancer. We’ve been dating since the beginning of the year.

Things have been going so well. He even asked me to go to his late wife’s sister’s wedding with him. We had tons of plans, talked about the future a lot and loved spending time together.

And my insecurities came up and I didn’t always handle it perfectly, but he told me he wanted to work through things with me. That unlike the girls he tried to date casually, I was one he felt seriously about.

He asked me to be his girlfriend, he told me he wanted to spend his birthday weekend with me. But he broke up with me right after that.

I’m reeling and heartbroken, and I so badly tried to be there and care for this person who also carried a lot of complex grief. I was really falling for him.

I want to believe the grief won’t let him be ready and that this isn’t my fault, but he did bring up some concerns about the relationship as well.

But they weren’t ones I thought would be deal breakers for him, they were things we talked about and I felt confident he would want to work with me through these things.

We texted a little bit after and agreed we need space, but he said, quote, Just because I think we’ve both got things to work on outside a relationship doesn’t mean I never want to hear from you again, end quote.

I want to take that as an open door, but I shouldn’t, and I’m beating myself up for my mistakes and for not being a better caretaker of someone’s grieving heart. How do I forgive myself for losing him?

How can I move on from someone I thought was becoming a huge part of my life? This breakup feels gut-wrenching in a way I’ve never experienced before. Sorry for such a long and messy text, I wanted to be with him so bad and I feel like I failed.

Thanks for any words you have to offer, Red Heart Emoji. I replied, buddy, I got you.

I am, as you know, not a therapist, but I am a very biased parasocial stranger, and parasocial goes both ways. It is mutually parasocial over here.

And I am a very biased parasocial stranger who tends to be on the side of the person who’s in front of her. But also, always tends to be on the side of a widow, but also, always tends to be, by default, also on the side of a woman automatically.

So I have many conflicts of interest when it comes to this topic, as you can tell. And I also know that dating has always been a special kind of hell, but that hell has gotten even more special, more hellish.

We are swiping through people on our phones in the grocery store. I’ve seen people do it in the grocery store. I’ve seen people do it at restaurants in a soaking pool in New Mexico.

You’re in a beautiful healing pool, natural hot spring in New Mexico, and you’re scrolling for people. I get it. I get it and also bleak.

It is bleak that we are hoping to find love and connection and getting ghosted, or worse, worse things happen in online dating, regular dating too.

The point is it’s hard out there, and pretty much everyone feels like it is a them problem, that they must be defective if they can’t find a needle in a burning haystack. And in Alex’s voicemails and text messages, I saw a lot of people that I love.

I saw a lot of the people that I have been, and I do have words to offer, quite a lot of words to offer, but I wanted to hear her words. I needed to get this whole story.

So five weeks after I got that text and those voicemails, we got on the phone on a Saturday morning to talk it out.

And as soon as we play you some ads, which is how podcasts make money, unless you want to subscribe to the ad-free version, we will get into it. So where were you when you sent me this text mentally?

At the gym, oh, mentally?

Mentally and physically? Physically you were at the gym, mentally you were?

I was like less than a week out from this breakup that happened, and just spiraling, and like wondering if I just like had no idea what just happened, very like blindsided, yeah.

So you’re at the gym, you’re at the gym, and you say, I’m going to text this in. I know a breakup spiral myself, okay? I do, and I do think you came to the right person.

A lot of people don’t. A lot of people come to me and I say, you should not be asking me this question. Okay, because I am.

I think that I am equal parts wise and toxic. I think that’s the, I love that. I’m equal parts either zen or just truly unwell.

Okay, so how did you meet this guy?

Hinge.

Dating app.

Okay, all right, and when you swipe on Hinge, like you see this guy, what is his profile like? What is your profile like?

Well, I mean, his profile kind of went against all the Hinge rules I had for myself, because it was like, I mean, he had the fact that he was a widower on his profile, which I’m not against that, but he was like, he’d had, there’s a section on Hinge

where you can say like, what you’re looking for. And I am in my, I’m 34. I’m like, I’ve been looking for my life partner for the last four years, I’d say. And he had had, you know, figuring out what I’m looking for.

And then like he had put in like, widowed. And I actually like, I saw that and it was like, this could be a risk. Cause I mean, I’ve been dating for a long time.

I’ve dated a lot of divorced guys who thought they were ready and then kind of like discarded me all of a sudden, like kind of like freaked out.

So I wasn’t, you know, but I was really curious to hear more about his experience and just like, at least, you know, get to know him.

And, but yeah, just like, I was like, you know, I don’t know, dudes are bad at Hinge and they’re bad at making profiles for themselves.

Yeah, I think, I mean, I actually want to, I want to take a step back cause I want to know, like, you know, having sort of like missed this, trying, attempting it and it did not work for me.

Like, what are, what are your rules for yourself having, you know, I would say almost like grown up with like online dating being the norm.

Yeah.

What are my rules for myself?

Because you said a win against your, against your hinge rules. So I assume like that you’ve, you’ve learned some life lessons. Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

I mean, I’ve been, I mean, I guess so like you give a little bit of insight into my headspace. I’ve, I’m 34. I moved around for work a lot.

I’m finally like back in, in my home city where I want to be living. And so now I’m like, okay, like I want to find a partner. I’m ready to do that.

And I, you know, I’ve dated a lot of, can I like swear on here? I’ve dated a lot of shitheads for sure. So like, a lot of like non-committal guys.

And so like, I think the work I’ve done on myself in my dating life is like, I am looking for somebody like, who is ready for this, who wants a relationship, who like is, who values that in their life.

And I just, I think like, apps can bring out this like, and I have a lot of friends that are dating too. And it’s really hard, like where apps can just bring out this scarcity mindset for us. And it’s like, there was no good guys out there.

And like, all the dudes are, all the dudes that are good are taken.

And so like, if you see one who like, you know, is recently out of the marriage or is, you know, I mean, in this case, I don’t see a lot of widowed folks in their thirties, which is why I wanted to talk to you, because like, I don’t have anyone to

talk to about this experience. I was just kind of like, these people realize the value of a relationship and they know how to be in a relationship. And so I kind of saw that as like a big green flag for me.

I was, you know, but my rules for myself, I would say like, I just, I’m sick of putting in so much more effort. That’s just been my experience. I just always put in so much more effort than them in my dating life.

And so I just been kind of like trying to sit back and be like, I want somebody who’s going to match that effort, who genuinely likes me, who genuinely like sees my value. I’m not going to sit and work for it anymore.

And I didn’t immediately clock that in his profile, but once we started talking, the conversation just was so good. And I mean, it feels like a low bar, but he was asking me questions and interested in my life.

And I was like, oh my God, I don’t think this is so hard to find.

The bar is low. The bar is so low. I understand seeing Widowd and being like green flag because so many men come out of a relationship, come out of a marriage, go right to dating, believe that they have speed run healing.

They’ve done any kind of self-reflection. And I think, I wonder if you’ll agree with this. And the only exceptions are the six male listeners for this podcast, one of whom is a Gen Z.

And I just found your email and I will be emailing you back. To get on a dating app as a man, I believe that you should need four to six referrals from women you’ve dated who say he can be set loose on other women.

There needs to be a review system put in place to make dating better, online dating better. That’s what I would say.

I fully agree.

You have to put the contact information for your last three access. That’s what I would say. Okay.

What’s the next step? How soon after chatting are you seeing each other?

Yeah, it was over the holidays, so we were both out of town, just talking and talking and talking, and just talking constantly for two weeks almost.

And then we both got back to town, immediately went on a date. It was magical, beautiful, wonderful, amazing first date. And yeah, we talked about everything.

We talked about his wife. We talked about all the insane shit he’d been through. But it wasn’t heavy or anything like that.

It just felt really natural and good. And we just had so much in common. And it just felt like everything was aligning so well.

And then we went from the restaurant to the dive bar next door. And all my friends were there. And so you met my friends that night.

And it was just so sweet and perfect. And yeah, great first date.

Great rom-com set up too. It really is. From the restaurant to the bar, all your friends are there.

I can see this, by the way. I can see it. I can see it.

Yeah.

I love it.

Yeah.

And I mean, I asked, we talked about what we wanted and what we were looking for on that date too.

And he was like, yeah, to be honest with you, I’m definitely, I don’t want to give away too much of his stuff because I want to respect his privacy and his process and everything.

But just to share my perspective of it, he was definitely honest that he was like, it had been about a year since his wife had passed with cancer. And he had told me, I’m still working through all this stuff. I don’t exactly know how to do this.

This is new for me. And I was like, this is new for me too. I’ve never lost someone this close to me, and I’ve never dated someone who’s lost someone this close to them.

Yeah, we’re all new here.

We’re all new. Yeah. All brand new.

And he told me that that summer, he’d gone on a casual dating bender to just try it.

Very normal.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that… Yeah, he had dated a girl for a little bit, like a short amount of time, and, you know, she’d wanted to get more serious.

And he was like…

I thought I just wasn’t ready in general. So I broke it off with her, but he was like, now that I’ve met you, I think I just wasn’t ready for her because you’re just really special. And I like think I want to do this basically.

And I was like, okay, like, and the relationship just kind of like took off from there. Like, we, I don’t know, like, we went through like kind of a lot of intense things together.

Not to like give away where we are, but we went through Operation Metro Surge together. And we went through like a big surgery that happened earlier this year. And then I went through that together and we cried about his wife together.

I don’t know, it just felt like it wasn’t the longest relationship, but it was a very intense relationship.

And definitely like, as somebody who hasn’t ever been in a long term relationship, and I have like such a pathology about never having had that before, I’m just like, what the fuck’s wrong with me?

Like, no, no, no.

But I just, I was like, oh my gosh, this feels like this like karmic meeting. This is why I’ve like, had all of these painful endings, like up until now, like, because like this person is so special and they think I’m so special.

And like, it’s tough. We like have this loss to work through and we have like, difficult like real adult trauma to work through because we’re like in our mid thirties and that’s like part of it.

But, you know, he’s like, he was the first person I ever dated who said to me like, hey, like I want you to let me know when things are coming up for you. I want to work through them. I want to talk through it.

I, it’s really important to me. I just want you to be yourself.

I just like, I never like dated somebody who really valued that and who’s like really wanted to like who was willing to have the hard conversations with me and who like thought I was worth that.

I had just learned in my relationships to like never bring anything up. Because like it would always be some, it would just, I would get dumped if I brought anything up.

Protect his peace at all costs.

Shut up.

You’re so easy breezy. Like you’re such a cool girl. You’re such a cool girlfriend.

You actually have no needs. Yes, exactly. I’m actually not like other girls.

I’m a robot.

Yeah, completely.

And then, yeah, so I was like, oh my gosh, for the first time in my life, I feel like safe to be human because we talked a lot about like, I mean, he had a long relationship with this person and she wasn’t perfect either.

And I’m just like, oh my gosh, and he really values women in his life. He has a lot of friends that are women. And I’m just like, okay, I can be a human with this person.

My experience with that is that I’m just at the beginning, like this kind of shiny, exciting thing for them and they’re really into me. And I’m trying to figure out like, am I into him? Like, I don’t know, okay.

And then I’m in and then all of a sudden they’re like, oh, you’re a human, you’re anxious. Like, you’ve got things. And I’m, yeah, I thought that was cool.

Like I thought that was what a relationship was.

No.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

No, I’m the one with needs. I’m the one with thoughts. You’re supposed to be a vessel for my growth.

You know, you’re supposed to be a facilitator and a container for me and my life. Yeah. No reciprocity.

All this, I feel so deeply in my soul, Alex. All this I’ve felt, all this I’ve done, all this I’ve been through. There is something too.

Everyone who listens to this is going to be like, yes, I know that feeling where it’s just so electric, and it does feel, it feels so real, it feels so right, and it’s what you’ve been waiting for. And it’s just such a relief, right?

And you’re like, oh, but we can do this, we can do that. This is so wild. Like, I don’t know.

You’re like, this is what people are talking about? This is what it’s all been about? I’m gonna go under my desk, but I am listening.

No, that’s exactly what it’s out like.

And I was just like, you know, not to like project hopes onto him or to like, get ahead of myself. But I, I just was like, this could really be it. And like, I, I felt like he really felt really feeling like, are you, what are you wanting?

And I was like, I mean, what I want is still the same. I still am looking for a partner and I could see that with you. But I am not trying to rush you.

I’m not trying to like move us ahead of where we’re at. I know like, I’m the first person you’re trying to date after this huge loss.

And, you know, and so we had that conversation and then about a month later, he brought it back up and he was like, you know, I want to check in on this again. Like, how are you feeling?

And I was like, I’ve been kind of bracing myself for you to tell me, you’re not ready, even though things are going so well. And like, we just like love spending time together. And it was just amazing.

And, you know, there were these times that would come up where like, he would just kind of like, you know, get really distant. And but he was good at like reassuring me, like, hey, like, when that happens, like, I’m dealing with stuff.

It’s nothing about you. It’s nothing about how I feel about you. I am really just having a lot of like, guilt and feelings about like, you know, what it means.

Being happy.

My wife and being happy and like wanting to be in this and still grieving.

And I was like, I know and both things can exist at the same time. And actually like, it’s so surreal to me to be talking to you because like, when I first started dating him, I listened to your book about meeting Matthew.

And I was like, okay, like this is possible. You can be totally grieving still and totally fall in love with somebody. Like, and I just, I wanted to believe it was possible.

And sorry.

Yeah, no, sorry about it. I’m sorry. It’s like so painful.

And like, it is possible. And also like, it’s possible. It’s doable.

It’s so rare. And it’s also so common. I know so many widows have done it successfully.

More have done it unsuccessfully. I know I hurt people. I know that falling in love with me was like an act, took a lot out of Matthew.

You know what I mean? Like, he really was, he was a container. You know, he was a container.

And he was so gracious and so patient while I was, you know, just reeling, you know, and I had like the shame of it, right?

I just felt like so ashamed for being alive and like liking someone, then being pregnant, then, you know, like falling in love with somebody and like having a life and dah, dah, dah. And, you know, I didn’t know he did too for a long time.

You know, I didn’t know he did too. And it’s hard. It’s hard.

And if I have one fear, it is that I have made it look too easy because it’s hard. It is hard. And so like fucking cry about it.

I’m sorry, Alex. Like that’s-

Yeah, no, it’s okay.

It’s a lot. It’s a lot. And I just, I know also what it’s like to just like have that feeling of just being like, oh my God, I fucking did it, right?

Like I found it and I don’t know.

It’s just- Yeah, because I’ve been looking for it for so long and I’m just like-

Yes, yeah.

Yeah, I think, and I felt like I was so willing to be that container though. We talked about her almost every time we hung out.

And it was strange though, because it was like we talked about her, but she would kind of come up in a memory or I’d be talking about something else and it would remind him of her.

And I was just like, okay, Alex, you need to sit with the hard feelings that are coming up. Are you really going to be jealous of a dead woman? She’s not here.

But I would then try to ask about her and you’d get a little defences and he’d be like, why do you want to know? And I’d be like, because I want to know you. I want to know, I want to have a relationship with her.

I want to do this. I want to be here for you.

You know what it reminds me of too is, you know, and this is, I only saw the other side of it through just accidentally, right? Not through any actually working on myself, it just thunked me in the brain.

But when you meet someone and fall in love with them, Aaron, for example, I was obsessed with his ex-girlfriend. She knows this.

She knows this part of my first book was I was just like, oh my god, she’s taller than me, prettier than me, played college sports, like, she’s cool, she looks good in colors I don’t. How do I know all this? I’m stalking.

I am stalking, right? But there’s also this thing where I’m like, oh, you know a version of him that I don’t, and when he died too, I was like, oh, it’s love that I have for you almost. You know what I mean?

It’s love. It’s to know another person is to want to know this part of them that is unknowable in a lot of ways to you, right? To be like, okay, but who were you when you were with this person?

You know? And what parts of you does she know? I don’t know.

There’s just something that’s fascinating about it, whether that person is dead or alive, and I get it. I don’t know. I get it.

I get it. Yeah. I get it.

And I would want to know too, right? I’d be like, okay, but like, okay, where did you meet? And that would happen.

And that would happen. And actually, that was very fascinating to me with, you know, Matthew, who was a divorced person, too. I was like, then what?

Then what? Then what? Like, you know, like, it’s just, I just wanted to know.

I just want to know you. You know? I just want to know you.

That’s normal. You’re normal. Sorry if you watch me take a bite of food.

I hope this isn’t distracting. Hopefully, Grace can get really good content. I’m the most disgusting eater.

I love eating on calls.

It’s my whole thing. I couldn’t do it this time, but I was like thinking about it.

I’ll go all day. As the phone is ringing, I take a fucking bite.

Yeah, I don’t want you to know.

I’m like, gotta take a bite of this sandwich quick. Oh, they answered. I’m choking.

Yeah. Absolutely insane. Okay, so things are good.

Things are good.

You have the best hair.

Thank you so much.

If I had that hair, I would be so mean. It’s so beautiful.

No one’s ever said that to me. I should get meaner with this hair.

You should get meaner. You have fairy tale hair.

Maybe that’s, oh my God, thank you.

You do. Wow.

Maybe that’s my, this is the break up. I think that’s finally sending me into my villain arc. This is the one that is fucking me up the most, even though it was like, I don’t know, a four-month relationship.

Is that crazy that I’m crashing out this hard over a four-month relationship?

Whatever. Here’s what I’m gonna say is, I don’t think it’s the length of the relationship. I think it’s the intensity of the relationship.

It’s what the relationship means. It’s what the relationship brings out in you. And I have ended long-term relationships and been like, huh, big deal.

And then I have been discarded by somebody who, to go back to something you said before, it’s like, I’m still trying to figure out if I like you, but I have to like you because you like me.

But then when you break up with me, I’m like, but I didn’t even like you. Okay? And you were kind of gross, okay?

And I actually like, and so was your apartment, and I didn’t want to be there, and like, fuck, you know? And so, yeah, I’ve let she who has not crashed out over, over something cast the first stone.

So it won’t be me, and everyone who is listening to this is on your side because that’s, that’s the law. But this is four months and it’s an intense four months.

It’s an intense four months because like the political climate, the world that we live in, and because like you have found something, and you feel valued, and you feel loved, and you feel seen, whether or not you say love, to feel loved is a real

Yeah.

Whether or not you say it, like you feel loved, like what is love if not being seen and considered?

Completely.

I had never had somebody treat me so well, who was genuinely interested in me as a person who I could, I just, the values, the desires, the things we wanted in life just felt so aligned.

I was just like, this person is exactly what I’ve been wanting and hoping for. There is the complicated, he’ll get hit with grief sometimes and it’s really hard. And I have these big feelings.

So then I’m shaming myself for having those big feelings, because you’re like, no, he’s the one who gets to have the big feelings. He had the loss, you don’t get to have these big feelings. I don’t know, but I do, I just thought I had to keep it.

I know what you mean, though.

You’re like, oh, it’s the blast radius, he’s at the center of it. So I got to just kind of…

Yeah, I just felt like, I was like, well, I mean, I have my shit, of course.

I’m incredibly anxious in relationships and I just have this hang up about myself that no one’s ever going to want anything long term with you or no one’s ever actually going to want to be with you.

And so I don’t know, but he had the big loss and he had this thing. And so I was like, okay, that’s what needs to be the focus of this relationship.

And but yeah, there were just times where I would, there was one time I remember we were day drinking and we were kind of drunk at the end of the day.

And we were just talking about our friends who do ethical, they have ethically non-monogamous relationships. And I was like, yeah, that’s not for me. And he was like, yeah, that’s not for me either.

And he said something about, like, you know, present company excluded, I just want to be with my wife. And he was like angry. And I’m like falling in love with this guy.

And I had to like go in the bathroom and cry. And I was just like, I can’t show that to him because like, he like needs like your feelings as like the short-term person in his life. Like this person that he lost is more important than you right now.

And so I just, I don’t know.

But I think you’re crying too because, you know, also he says present company excluded, right? I want to be with my wife.

And to me, it’s like, I mean, I’ve the way that I kind of came to terms with being in these two relationships was like kind of, you know, polyamory easier when one man’s dead. You know, it just is.

It’s like, but it’s like, yeah, I’m always going to love Erin. I’m always going to be in love with Erin. And I’m also in love with Matthew.

And, you know, and like both of those things are real. I could not have like truly, I wasn’t okay with that after, you know, a few months of dating him, right? I just wasn’t.

I was like, oh God, oh God, oh God, oh God. What am I doing? What am I doing?

And I probably did have a lot of those sort of insecurities and hearing this too, like I want to go, Matthew would never be on this podcast, but I want to go back and I want to turn and be like, were you okay? Were you okay?

Because of course you deserve to have feelings. And Alex, you do deserve to have your feelings. And as magically as you’re describing this relationship too, it sounds to me like you’re not being seen in it, right?

Like the fact that this would hurt you or have an effect on you. And, you know, like, I hate that, I hate that, I hate that for you.

I think he really wanted to though, because that’s like, I think as we like progressed, and, you know, he did ask me to be his girlfriend.

And there were just like a lot of things that I was like, okay, like, this person really does value me and really does see something.

And he invited me to his wife’s sister’s wedding, like, yeah, a couple months out from when we were supposed to go, and we didn’t go, because he broke up with me. But I was like, oh my gosh, like, are you, like, this is huge for me.

Are you sure you’re ready for this? Like, are, meeting her family, like, are they ready? Like, do they want to meet me?

Like, this is huge. Like, this is a lot of, and it was in a place that, like, they had a lot of memories together. And I was like, this means a lot to me.

This signals to me that I mean a lot to you. And I think as far as making me feel seen, like, he really, really wanted to. Like, he went out of his way to say, like, hey, like, please let me know what you’re feeling.

And I’d like, we had that conversation, and I was like, I need to, like, go home and, like, journal and then, like, read it off to you, because I can’t, I don’t know, like, how to respond to this, because I’m not used to sharing my feelings with men.

And so I did, and I said, like, hey, these are, like, the things that I struggle with. I really struggle to feel, like, lovable. I really struggle to believe that, like, you would actually want this with me.

You’re not making me feel that way. I think two things can be true. You can be grieving and we can be, like, really progressing in this and enjoying this and be moving towards something.

And I don’t know, he did, like, we did have talks about, like, as we got deeper and, like, he wanted to know, like, what I was struggling with. And I did finally open up a little bit more about, like, I’m worried I’m not as cool as your wife.

I’m not as chill as her. I’m not, like, I don’t know. Like, I’m just a very different personality than she was.

And I know he liked those things about me, I think, but also, I think, didn’t like those things about me because they weren’t like her. And I think he was kind of, like, at war with himself a little bit about that.

Um, the one time that I felt like, oh, he does care about, like, where I felt like I’m being anxious and human and, like, I don’t like how I’m acting right now.

He had, like, invited me to Trivia with a friend of his, and that was, like, the first time I was meeting one of his good friends and had a great time with them.

And then, like, I couldn’t go for a couple weeks because I was recovering from this surgery that I’d had. And then I was feeling better and I was like, oh, can I come?

And during that time, he’d kind of, like, gotten into this pattern of, like, having Trivia night with his friends. And he’s like, oh, I’m just going to go with the boys. Like, and I was like, okay, I’m doing your Trivia night with the boys.

And I get it.

And then the next night, or the next week that it came around, I was like, can I come to Trivia again?

And he was like, oh, I don’t know. Like, the teams are full.

And I was like, okay.

And then, because I was bringing him around my friends and I was like, I want you around.

You want to feel like reciprocal or something, not just like we’re only with my friends.

Yeah. Yeah. Or I just wanted to feel like I could come be part of his regular life and routine and everything.

And he definitely made time for me. I’m not saying he didn’t.

But you want to be folded into somebody’s life in a way. Yeah. Where it’s like, well, you’re here with all my friends, but like, yeah, you know.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So and then the next week, he mentioned some of his female friends were there and I was like, oh, so your girlfriend’s got to go see, but can I go? And he’s like, I just want this to be a friend thing. And I was like, oh my God, you’re right.

You deserve to have your friend time. I mean, we had a good talk about it and I was like, there were reasons like he just has more work to do in building community here. And I’ve been here longer and more community than he does and just more friends.

And so it’s like, I kind of like hate that I had that reaction of like, oh, why can’t I come?

I don’t think it’s inherently uncool to ask to go to something, you know what I mean? And just like indicate your interest, but goddamn it, sucks to be a woman.

I know.

Well, I think there were other things too that I was like, I think I’m a lot more of a feeler and a lot more of a, I’m gonna tell you when I’m feeling something or if I’m into you, if I’m happy, I’m gonna ask to do a cute date for Valentine’s Day,

where we cook dinner together. And she hated Valentine’s Day. And I’m gonna want to do a fun thing for my birthday.

And she hated her birthday.

And I’m just like, okay, like I’m like not a cool girl like that.

Like I’m like oversharing, I’ll take my sweatshirt off.

No one’s ever accused me of being a cool girl, okay? The thing about me is you’ll never wonder how I feel about something. You’ll never wonder, you’ll never say she’s so mysterious.

I was just wondering what’s she all about. I’ve already told you what I’m already all about. I’ve actually already hijacked the conversation.

I’ve overshared. You know exactly what I’m about, and you will never have to wonder. And I would love to be a cool girl.

Actually, I wouldn’t. I would hate it. But I felt insecure about that for sure, because it’s back to that thing which is just like, oh, don’t worry, I don’t have needs.

And there are people, I believe it, who just don’t care about their birthday, don’t care about like a holiday. But I care about the things I care about. And I just don’t think you should have to pretend not to.

Okay, so you’re his girlfriend. Things are going well. And then, like kind of set that scene.

Like you’re his girlfriend now. Like, how does it feel to be his girlfriend?

Oh, great. I was like, oh my gosh, I… Like, I don’t know.

I was really falling for him. And I think my feelings, I know he was, like, I’ve never dated somebody who was so into me. Like, I was almost like uncomfortable with it.

I was like, I don’t know.

Yeah.

And yeah, we just, we had a great time together. We, you know, I met his best friends. I like could just picture, I could picture going somewhere.

And he said the same thing. He was like, I think this is going somewhere. And I kept having the like little moments of recognizing that, I don’t know, like the grief would come up and he would just kind of become like not himself for a little bit.

And like, I think I had a hard time not taking that personally or not feeling like, oh my gosh, like I just I want to make him happy so bad because this is so happy for me.

Yeah.

And I can’t do it. And I know he was. I know it was like both and like, but then I don’t know, as far as I knew everything was going fine.

And I was like, this is just part of, you know, I kind of thought of it the way you said, like, I’m in a polyamorous relationship with him and his late wife, kind of, like.

Yeah. Yeah.

That’s kind of how it is. And I was fine with that. And we got to like his birthday weekend and basically like had like a marathon weekend planned.

And he had a birthday party Friday night with all his friends and I met all of them. And I was like, it was great. Had a great time.

I was very charming and I got along with everybody. And made everyone laugh during the party and I was like very proud of myself.

And yeah, and the next day like woke up and he was like a little like maybe low energy, but I was like, I’m not going to read into this. I’ve been doing my work. I’m being confident.

I am believing him when he says he cares about me and he has these moments and it doesn’t reflect how he feels about me.

I was like, okay.

So I woke up and he wasn’t in bed. And I was like, that’s weird, but okay. And then I just kind of was like, we have dinner reservations later that night.

And I was like, why don’t we go day drink a little bit, like go watch a game and day drink.

And he was like, okay.

And we got to the bar and he was like, you’re going to hate me for this. And I was like, what? And he was like, I had ordered a beer and he ordered a Diet Coke.

And I was just like, oh my God, you don’t want to be here. You are like, I just, I don’t know, there’s something about it. I was just like, I just shut down.

And I was just like, ooh, I feel super rejected right now. Like you do not want to be here with me. And I had been like, let’s be like dirt bags together.

Let’s like have a fun little pre dinner and drink.

And yeah, I don’t know.

You just like did not want to play.

Yeah.

But I think in that moment, I just was like, oh, he’s like disengaging. But then like we got over it. I was like, it’s fine.

Like you had a great night, went to dinner.

I want to go back though. It’s like, because what is like what when he goes, you’re going to hate me.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? I know. What is that even?

I think I don’t know. I don’t know. I think it’s okay for you to feel weird and confused and rejected because like, what do you mean?

Yeah.

You know, who’s not telling you actually how he feels.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So you have to fill in the blanks, like you’re filling in the blanks because it’s not clear.

Right.

Like you’re going to hate me or order to diet coke. Well, it’s like, if you don’t want to be here, you are an adult man. You can say like, this is like too much for me.

Birthdays, anniversaries, like big dates are hard for me. I’m, you know, like then you just kind of, but it is, you do have a responsibility even if, and especially if you’re grieving, do you communicate those things?

I know it’s hard because I wasn’t good at it. And guess what? That was my responsibility.

And I didn’t always do it well. And my birthday was a huge trigger for me. Like me getting older, Erin staying the same age, sucked, hated it, hated it.

And how is anyone gonna know that if you don’t say it? Like how are you supposed to feel? Like be nice to past Alex.

Like she, how is she supposed to feel? She’s supposed to be like, I get it. What do you get?

You get that he’s ordering a diet coke and he said you’re gonna hate him for it. Like, which also kind of implies, you know, that you should be mad or you’re going to be mad. I don’t know.

Like it does imply like you’re having, you’re about to have a different day. So be nice to her. She didn’t do what she got.

She shut down. That’s the worst thing she did. Okay.

I forgive her.

Yeah. I mean, I think subconsciously I kept doing these things to try to like, be like, we’re having a great time. You like me.

Like, I’m your fun, cool girlfriend. We’re not sad on your birthday. Like filling in blanks because we didn’t talk about it.

If there was grief coming up for him, which I’m sure there was. But yeah, had a great birthday dinner, like went out and met my friends after at the bar. It was a great time.

And then the next day woke up, he was kind of like low energy again.

And I was like, I’m going to go get birthday treats.

And so I like went up and got fancy croissants, brought him home and he was like, oh, I don’t really want those right now. Like he was already eating. And I was just like, oh, okay.

And I just, yeah, like, yeah, I was just trying to like, make him happy, I think. And he like didn’t, I don’t know.

And that’s where I’m like, God, am I a monster just trying to like control how somebody’s feeling around a situation and getting upset with them for like not feeling the way I want them to feel. Um, but yeah, I…

Do you kind of feel like if you could make him feel okay, then your relationship would be okay?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, but same thing, like I, I kind of like had a moment of feeling rejected about it, but we got over it and like moved on and had a great day and you know, did some stuff with his friends that day and got home and like other than those two things,

Yeah.

Had a great time.

Yeah.

And then like, he was very, after that he was very like, okay, when are we seeing each other this week?

What’s going on? Like, let’s get it on the calendar. I race bikes and he was like, oh, should I come to your race this weekend?

And he was like going to come to my work gala with me. And he had this like, he was getting a suit made and he had it rushed for this gala. And we just had all these plans coming up.

So I was just like, everything’s fine. And then, you know, he’s like, okay, why don’t you come over Tuesday? And so we spent the night together Tuesday, had dinner and he made kind of a mean joke to me.

And he would do this. He would kind of like make mean jokes sometimes.

He would be like, now you’re telling me something? Okay, tell me what do you mean?

I don’t know. He would just like, he would make these weird little jokes. And then, you know, that night he made some joke.

Like I had like then washing my hands and I like, you know, when you have to like take your hands like, and over the toilet to get to the towel. And he made this joke about me, like, spraying all over the toilet. But like the tone was like mean.

And I was just like, hey, what the fuck?

Like, this isn’t funny.

Like, you know, you know, this like, like you’re just, I just feel like you’re kind of trying to make me feel like dumb right now. And like, I just, I don’t know where this is coming from.

And I was kind of just like, I kind of called him out on it and I was like, hey, like you made this weird joke and like you were kind of short with me this weekend. I just don’t understand like where this is coming from.

And he just kind of was like, oh my God, you’re right. I’m so sorry. And then broke up with me the next morning.

Okay, so it’s 5 a.m.

Is it school day or a weekend?

School day, school day, yup. So I’m getting ready to go to work, or I’m supposed to go into work that day.

And I was like, hey, what’s up?

Why are you on the computer at five in the morning? And he was like, I feel like I’ve just been mean to you to try to make you, hoping that you would reject me.

And I was like, whoa, okay.

And he was like, I have been really missing my wife. He said her name, but I’ve been really missing her. And I was like, okay.

And I was like, did I do anything? And he was like, no.

And he was like, well, I don’t know.

I had some things about you gave me pause.

And I was like, okay.

And I was like, he said the way that I handled the diet coke and the croissants and the fact that I was insecure about my body was like a problem for him. And he didn’t understand why.

He was like, you’re just, I think you’re so perfect and so beautiful and so wonderful. And I just wish you could see yourself that way. I was like, I’m really working on all these things.

The things that have come up with us, we’ve talked about them. And you said we would always talk about them. And you said you wanted to work through things with me.

And so why didn’t we have a conversation about this? Like, why is it just over now? And one thing I’m really proud of about myself is I am so willing to hear feedback and take it seriously and adjust.

And like, I thought I’d shown him that I would absolutely do that and take the feedback he had for me seriously. And so I think the reason I was crashing out so hard about this breakup was because I called my friends after and they were shocked.

Everyone was like, you guys were so good. You guys were so solid. We thought you were heading towards this beautiful long-term relationship.

Yeah.

It was just shocking.

I didn’t see it coming. And I mean, I can go back now and be like, oh, well, this was weird, and maybe he was pulling away here, and maybe this thing, I did this thing that I’m beating myself up for now. But at the time, I was like, we’re solid.

We both talk about how we’re messy people working through stuff, but we both want to be in this and we both want to work through it. And I just felt safe to be imperfect, I guess.

Yeah.

And then I just felt like, oh no, it’s kind of back to that, and back to my old pattern of like the minute I, you know, I don’t know, maybe I am too broken to be with somebody, or maybe I am too insecure, too like sensitive about things.

Like I don’t know if those things that happened were disqualifying, or if it was really like his grief that made it so that he couldn’t.

I mean, how bad were you with croissants? Like getting someone croissants was, it was very shocking to him. Like is there something you’re not telling me?

Like you brought in the croissants and you said, eat this croissant motherfucker and be happy, or I’ll shoot you.

No, I mean, I know I got in and I was like, I brought birthday croissants, and he was like eating something from the fridge. He was like, oh, I’m not going to eat that right now probably. And I was just like, really?

And I was like, and I just kind of like, but I went up and got these for you. Like, I just, I don’t know. Like I was, I was bummed.

I think I was like bummed out for like 15 minutes. And then I was like, Alex, get over it. You’re being a baby.

Like he doesn’t want a croissant right now.

Chill.

And like we even talked about it after, like he texted me the next day and he was like, I’m so sorry. I like was not my like sweet self to you this weekend. And I was like, I’m so sorry for trying to force you to do croissants and beer.

Like you were so valid for not wanting those things.

Well, it’s like all, it just feels like lost in translation to me. Like the thing that no one’s saying is like, how does this really feel? Right?

Like this is a birthday without your wife, you probably only had one. And the first one, the first year is such a, like the first year of grief of widowhood.

I’ve never heard a widow disagree with this, but if there’s one out there who does the first, please let me know. The first year of widowhood is such a cyclone, you have no idea what happened, right?

The first year ends and you’re like, I guess that happened, who knows? The second year is the year, is almost the first year, because it is all your firsts are done.

You felt some of them, some of them you just sort of like could only skate over, you didn’t have the capacity for it. Maybe you disassociate a little bit. The second year of widowhood is real.

This is just reality. There are no more firsts, there’s some rare firsts, but it’s never gonna be, again, your first birthday without them, your first holiday or first anniversary without them. It’s just like, this is what life is like now.

And it’s not that you pass the year mark and you’re suddenly like better. I kind of thought that that’s what it would be like. I kind of thought like, I’m gonna run it, I’m gonna run out the clock.

And then a year will have passed and I’ll be good. And instead, it’s, you know, as my friend Dr. Anirath says, not just how time passes, but what you do with the time.

And you can think that you’re in a different place than you actually are, you know? You really can. And I don’t know, I want you to have as much compassion for yourself as you do for him.

He’s never done this, neither of you. And it does almost feel like one of those movies where it’s like if one person had just had like, is this birthday really hard? Should we not do any of this?

Like, do we need to just not do any of this? Like, but what happened happened? And so here you are.

And if, you know, initially, right, you said you wrote this text message in a moment of crash out. It’s been a month and a half. It’s been five weeks since you sent that text.

What does it feel now, is my first question.

I mean, so bad.

I’m still, I’m still, I’m still really sad. I’ve been, I’ve been going to therapy like twice a week. I, there has been like a tiny bit of community.

There was a tiny bit of communication. We have not been in communication for a while now. Yeah.

And I think the reason I was crashing out so hard and I was like, dude, like, and I think I like, you had like an Instagram Q&A box and I was like, should I reach out to my widower ex? And you were like, no.

And I was like, no, but there’s layers to this. Where I was like, if I had just said this thing, if we had just like slowed down our relationship, it’s like, I know we cared about each other. Like, I know we cared about me.

And like, so like afterwards, I texted him as like, I am so sorry. I am such a mess. I can’t believe I like did those things and pushed you away.

And he was like, you’re not a mess. I am just realizing I don’t have the capacity. And I was expecting after going through so much hard shit, I was expecting this to be easy breezy all the time.

And I was like, well, I don’t know. I think at first, I was just really ashamed of myself. And I was like, oh my god, I wasn’t easy breezy.

I wasn’t, I was so difficult. And then I had friends say like, no, like this is a traumatized man.

It’s an easy breezy situation, baby.

No, no. And I was like, I’ve got a ton of my own shit, even though I haven’t lost somebody like this. I have just, I just been dating for so long.

I’ve got these huge like rejection issues that I’m working on myself. Parents, family things, body image things. Like I, and so I’m just like, should a husband easy breezy?

I don’t know.

Like.

No, you’re a person too. Believe him when he says you are not a mess. Believe him when he says like, this is not about you and he did not have the capacity because he didn’t.

Not because you are supposed to be easy breezy, but because he had an unrealistic expectation that you would be easy breezy because he had already gone through something. You have also gone through something.

Everyone on this earth has gone through something. Everybody is carrying something. I love and I did this, you know, myself for a while.

Like, put it on the scale. I’ll tell you mine weighs more. But guess what?

I can’t carry that for you. So mine is also pretty heavy. I’m switching point of view a lot while I’m speaking.

So try to keep up everybody. No, you do not owe him easy breezy. He has a responsibility to learn you as well as you are learning him.

There’s a part of your text I’m about to take to task, which you said you need to, how do I stop judging myself for not being a better caretaker of a grieving heart? You owe yourself to be a caretaker of your own heart.

First and foremost, wrap that baby up and treat her like a tender, beautiful jewel. And you deserve to be with somebody who wants to take care of your heart as well, who understands that this is an exchange of value.

And it would not matter what you did, who you were, how you felt about your body, your list of insecurities. This is a traumatized man in the second year of widowhood, who does not know himself as well as he thinks he does.

And that is not a judgment. I don’t think that there’s a villain in this story, even though I always pick a villain because I’m extremely biased. And it is, nine times out of 10, the man.

Okay? I believe that. But like, no, you don’t have to do everything perfectly and respond to everything perfectly to be worthy of love.

And I would say that is not love. If you have to perform perfection, easy breeziness, ease all the time, it’s not. And I really think, I, I think that this relationship is not a failure for you.

And I don’t want you to feel like a failure. Like, it’s not a failure. This, this relationship was real.

The things that you felt were real. The experience of it was real. And it gave you something, and it taught you something.

And if nothing else, I hope it gives you the confidence to know that you can do it.

Like, you can do it, but it does not necessitate you sacrificing yourself at the altar of somebody else’s emotion, somebody else’s pain, and, and, and prioritizing them and only them.

I’m sure your therapist is giving you much better advice, but like, it’s, it’s not you. Like, it’s not you. This is like, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a tough recipe.

It is a tough recipe. And again, I usually side with a widow too. And also, grief does not always bring out the best in us.

In fact, I would say a lot of times it really does bring a lot of like the worst to the surface. But I think you’re so beautiful. I think you’re so self-aware.

Possibly, this is for a therapist to decide in you, but like maybe a little bit too self-aware, you know? Like maybe you just need to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves and have that be fucking loving you. What a dumb thing to say.

What does it mean to love yourself? But like, look at that past version of yourself with some tenderness and some care. Like she went for it and she, like you did it.

Like you did it, you know? You did it and you showed yourself to somebody and you will never be too much for the right person ever, ever.

I say that as somebody who has such a dark, ugly, I have so many parts of me that are so ichy and gross and that I fight and resent and I’ve had all of those parts seen and loved by people who I almost like wanted to like reject me.

Like I wanted them to like confirm all the horrible thoughts I have about myself. So I don’t know, like that version of me sees that version of you and I hate it.

Yeah, I think these are all the things I’ve been wrestling with in the time since I texted you. And yeah, I think I just was like, I know people mean so well when they say, the right person is, you’re not going to be too much for the right person.

And I’ve heard it so many times and I’m like, oh, well, I’m 34, I’m only getting older. You know, like, how was it not, how have I not met the right person yet? I’ve dated so many people, I’m just not the right person for anyone.

Like, I think, like, I just really thought this could have been something special and I think he thought so too.

And when he, when we were having that, like, text, you know, he was like, if you want to talk again, like, I know this is, I feel like he was kind of like, I know this is really sudden and like, really out of nowhere.

If you want to talk again after this, I had to, like, run to work after this. After that happened. I was like, okay, I guess I’m going to pack all my, I guess I’ll pack all my shit that’s at your house into my car and go to work?

Go to work.

Yeah.

And he was like, well, if you want to, like, come back, if you want to talk more, I was like, I don’t know.

And so I texted him after and, you know, I had had something shipped to his house and they like double-sent it and I was like, oh my god, this is humiliating.

Like, he’s going to think I was sending something to his house, like after he broke up with me.

Yeah.

And I was like, hey, like, sorry, they’re going to, they messed up the order of like, just ignore it. Like, I won’t text you again after this. And he was like, that’s funny.

But like, I just want you to know, like, just because I think we both have some things to work on outside of relationship, it doesn’t mean I never want to hear from you again. And I think that made this loss feel so ambiguous to me.

I was like, oh, like, is the door still open? Like, are, do we just, does that mean you work on you? I’ll work on me?

Maybe. But I don’t know. And my therapist might be toxic because she was like, that sounds like an open door to me.

She was like, and then I just was looping on it for so long.

Yeah.

But she was like, I think you, maybe you should talk to him. And everybody in my life was like, no, do not talk to him. He broke up with you.

He doesn’t want to be with you. And I was just struggling with these things. It’s like open tab in my mind and just like, no, don’t, don’t go crawling back.

Don’t beg. And I’m very proud of myself. I’ve never gone back and been like, please, like before.

But I’m just like, this was so special and so good. The feelings were so real. How could he feel so differently now?

So anyway, I ended up just writing him a note to be like, okay, will not bother you. Yeah, I mailed it to him.

Letter or like a text?

Letter.

Email? Letter. I love a letter.

Letter.

I didn’t want to text him because I was like, I don’t want to be sitting there waiting for a text.

Oh, God. No, I love it. I love a letter that’s very chic.

Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah.

When was that?

Last week.

Oh, okay. So it’s gotten there. Have you heard from him?

No.

And I don’t expect to and I hope I don’t.

But I think you hit something for me, which is like, if somebody would have just said something that birthday weekend. And I didn’t know what to say because I didn’t want to be like, I didn’t want to like, I don’t know.

I just, I think I was just so subconsciously picking up on the vibes being off. I was like, no, no, we’re having a great time.

That’s why I asked you too. It’s like, well, if you thought like kind of you could just tap dance through to like make it okay. And like, when it’s just like not okay.

And, you know, if somebody had said something, maybe you still wouldn’t be together, but it wouldn’t feel so shocking to you.

Yeah.

And you would know. Because I don’t think it’s, oh, that you were just weird about a diet coke versus a beer.

That you were just weird to get croissants, which, you know, I see in myself sometimes I do things for other people and I’m like, I would like you to do this for me. So I’m going to go treat you like I want to be treated.

And so I’m just kind of asking you, right? Oh, I would love to be surprised with something. So I’m going to go do something that I think of as thoughtful, I would perceive as thoughtful.

And, you know, how are you supposed to know that’s wrong if somebody doesn’t tell you? Like, I’m ordering a diet coke because honestly, I just feel weird today. I really want, we planned it this weekend.

I just thought I would be like a rip roar in good time. And instead, I feel this, this and this. So I’m not going to drink right now.

And I still want to go to dinner tonight, but maybe we don’t, you know, blah, blah, blah. Again, you’re filling in blanks. He’s filling in blanks.

And, you know, I don’t know. It’s not, I think it can still be special, Alex. I think it can still be a special thing.

And your life is, I think, a good life is filled with things, with relationships that, you know, may not be forever, but like still have like that very, very special spark to them. So I don’t know.

It’s like I’ve, I’ve married two men, but I’ve had special relationships. You know what I mean? That like didn’t end in marriage.

It’s not like, you know, a long-term relationship is the only definition of success. And I understand why this would fuck you up. I really do.

It doesn’t matter that it was four months. Like you were planning to go to weddings, like family weddings with each other, spending the night at his house, leaving stuff there. Like your lives were blending together.

And now they’re not like, why wouldn’t that make you sad? That’s okay.

I know.

That’s okay.

I’m trying to get past this point of being like, maybe, maybe the door is open, maybe this can come back, maybe he’ll change his mind, maybe like, maybe he’ll process more of-

You also just said, like, I hope he doesn’t respond.

Well, I think right now, I hope he doesn’t because I want to get to a place where-

Yeah.

Like, I think it couldn’t, is it?

I don’t know.

They sound crazy, but like, I think I need to get to a place where- Thank you. I just need to get to a place where I don’t feel like, so fucked up over this.

I feel so fucked up over this and I still do, and it’s been, yeah, like what? Five weeks, I guess.

Oh no, you still have feelings after five weeks of also working, existing on this planet, doing all of your chores and tasks and maintaining other relationships, trying to go to the gym, maintain your hobbies, get eight hours of sleep, eat enough

fiber and protein, and go to therapy twice a week and you still feel sad? Oh no, what a monster. What a monster. How dare you not wrap it up faster?

Oh my God.

Yeah. God.

I know, but I’m…

Yeah. I just want it to be over.

I do.

I want this part to be over. Yeah.

I’m just like, God, can I ever date again? It just always ends like this. No matter whether I find a guy who…

I just thought this would be so different because I was like, these dudes that I’ve been dating don’t value relationships in their lives. And I’m just like, I really was like, I hit the jackpot with this guy, like he’s amazing.

He’s so special, he’s so caring, he’s so sweet. Our senses of humor line up so well. The things we want are values.

It’s just falling into place. And I was like, oh my God, finally. And to think about going back out to date, like shitty dude so long, texting back is like devastating.

I want to build a life with someone. I want to have shared history with them. I want to be like relatively young with somebody.

I know, like, you know, I’ll take love at any age I can find it, but it’s not my dream to meet my person when I’m in my 50s or 60s.

I’m hoping, I had been hoping to meet someone before this, you know, so I, I don’t know, I don’t know what to do or, like, how to move forward or, like, to, I don’t know how to, like, let go of, like, hoping he’ll come back someday.

But yeah, I’m just, I’m trying to, because I don’t really think there’s any other way forward here.

But yeah.

I mean, you don’t have to move forward right away. Like, you’re allowed to stick with it and, in fact, the great Pema Chodron, I’m going to find this, so I’d directly quote it. One second, one second.

Said, things falling apart is a kind of testing and also a kind of healing. We think that the point is to pass the test or to overcome the problem, but the truth is that things don’t really get solved. They come together and they fall apart.

Then they come together again and fall apart again. It’s just like that. The healing comes from letting there be room for all of this to happen.

Room for grief, for relief, for misery, for joy. To stay with that shakiness, to stay with a broken heart, with a rumbling stomach, with the feeling of hopelessness and wanting to get revenge, that is the path of true awakening.

Sticking with that uncertainty, getting the knack of relaxing in the midst of chaos, learning not to panic. This is the spiritual path. We use these situations either to wake ourselves up or to put ourselves to sleep.

Life is like that. We don’t know anything. We call something bad, we call it good, but really, we just don’t know.

So what does that all mean? I don’t know. But you know what I mean?

Like you can stay with the shakiness. Like stay with the shakiness. Stay with where it is right now until all of a sudden, you’re not there anymore.

I wish it was a checklist and a to-do list, and maybe your therapist will give you one, and maybe there is one and I just haven’t ever discovered it. But you can’t have a special connection that just goes one way.

You’re part of it because you’re special. Like it was special because of you too. So it’s not that you, a loser who’s not worth anything and will never find love tripped into this magical, beautiful relationship.

You made that magic because you are that magic. Thanks.

If you’ve been here before, you know that we are a believer in grudges, and at least sharing our grudges with each other, with the world. We have several episodes of grudge books.

So called because I wrote down all my grudges in a book and then left it on an airplane. It’s out there somewhere. Delta Airlines has not located it, and if you find it, please burn it.

So we have a grudge. We have a grudge from a listener to share with you right now. Hi, Nora.

I have a story for you about a grudge I’m still holding on to. It’s been around eight years, and I know it’s so selfish of me, so I’m keeping it to myself, but I’m still mad. It’s not selfish, babe.

I want to hear this. About nine years ago, my in-laws bought the house they wanted to spend their retirement in. It was in the city where my husband and I lived, so we rented it from them for a few months before they were ready to retire and move in.

My husband’s youngest brother has always been chronically unemployed and has generally lived with and sort of freeloaded off of one family member or another. I’ll call him Nick. While we were renting the house, Nick asked if he could stay with us.

We had plenty of space and the in-laws were fine with it, so we said yes. This is not going to end well. I’m just going to say that right now, guys.

It’s not going to end well. Nick’s been a problem. He’s not going to change his ways now.

Things were fine at first. He didn’t have any money, but we were getting a good deal on rent and didn’t mind buying his groceries and stuff.

He can be really fun and easy to talk to, but I think he’s got some undiagnosed mental health stuff because he can flip on a dime and be just not nice, very angry. Things we helped him do while he was staying with us.

Furnished his room for him, cheaply, but still. We helped him find a job. We helped him buy a bike.

We bought all of his food and he had major dietary restrictions. Oh, and he didn’t know how to drive or have a license. So we gave him rides everywhere that he couldn’t go on his bike, including to work if the weather was bad.

I gave him driving lessons in my car. Somehow he never damaged it, but stressful. Anyway, a few months went by and my husband and I closed on our first house.

I think Nick was sort of hoping he’d move into our new house too. Oh bless you. But that was never part of the deal.

He was going to be welcome to stay at the in-laws house until they moved in, at which point they were also expecting him to find his own place to live.

By this point, he was working a night shift job, so he had his own decent income, none of which he’d been spending. Anyway, we were in the process of moving out.

All the furniture in the in-laws house at this point belonged to us and was coming with us to the new place. I think we were letting Nick keep some stuff like the bed he’d been using, some cheap patio furniture.

We couldn’t exactly furnish the whole place for him, but we were doing our best to make sure he was comfy. I feel like we went above and beyond, honestly. I don’t know for sure, but I think a lot of the following stuff he did stemmed from being mad.

He couldn’t live with us free forever in our new house. You know how when you’re moving, you can find shocking amounts of dust bunnies under the furniture when you clear it out? That was happening, of course.

We aren’t slobs or anything, but we definitely aren’t neat freaks, and we had two dogs at the time. Of course, I planned to clean the house top to bottom once we were done moving out over a long weekend.

But as soon as we started taking things out of the house and over to the new place, Nick started taking photos of the dirtiest parts of the house and texting them to my mother-in-law, his mom, saying stuff like, They left all this dirt behind.

They’re leaving it for me to clean up so I can live in their filth. Geez, Nick. Come on.

Never mind that he’d been living there for months too, and using the entire house, he could have helped clean, and he knew we were still in the process of moving. We planned to clean when we were done.

My mother-in-law, of course, called me and said, Is this true? You need to clean the house. And forwarded me a bunch of the photos.

I explained to her what was going on. Not trying to talk shit about Nick, but telling her I don’t know why he’s worried. We just started.

We’re not even close to finished. Of course, we’ll clean. Anyway, we get all the furniture out.

He’s at his night shift job, but my husband texts him that I will be back to clean in the morning. My husband had to work. I can’t remember why I was cleaning by myself, but I was.

So I show up with my cleaning supplies first thing the next morning. I walk in, start to clean. Nick comes storming out of his room and demands that I give him my key to the house.

I say, no, I’m still cleaning, and what if I need to come back for some reason? I’ll give the key to his parents when they show up in a few weeks. He gets angry and starts yelling, getting in my face saying, you’re going to leave me in filth.

I had to tell my parents to make you come back and clean, and now I want you to go clean the bathroom and kitchen. You’re going to mop these floors. If I see a speck of dirt, I’m sending photos to my parents.

Nick. God. I turned around and left.

I may have slammed the door in his face on my way out. Oops. I called my mother-in-law and told her, I’m so sorry.

I just went over to the house to clean, but Nick got really confrontational as soon as I showed up, so I don’t feel safe there alone with him. She didn’t even seem surprised.

She told me she’d have a talk with him about staying out of my way, but could I please go back and finish cleaning? And you know what? I did it.

My blood still boils thinking about what a little pushover I was, but I went back and I cleaned that damn house top to bottom. It sparkled, and Nick stayed in his room the whole time. Thank God.

Anyway, we didn’t talk to him or have anything to do with him after that until about six months ago.

My father-in-law was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s and told my husband if he could have one thing while he’s still with it, he would want his sons to get along again. Nick has been on his best behavior.

I have stayed out of it, but secretly I don’t think I’ll ever get over how much we did for him and how he just threw it in our faces.

But I also feel guilty because my father-in-law is slowly succumbing to Alzheimer’s and all he wanted was good relationships among his kids. It feels messy to have this secret grudge, so I just keep it to myself. The end.

Sorry if it got so long. Thanks for reading. If you got all the way here, we always get all the way here.

We always get all the way to the end of the grudge. And now we hold it for you. It’s okay.

We want a lot of things in our lifetime. Of course, as parents, we want all of our kids to get along. It’s not in our control, tragically.

Not in our control. And I wish it was. I wish everything was in my control, personally.

That would be what I would do. I would just say, I’m in charge, and now people get along and be nice to each other. But that’s just not how it works.

So I get it. I get why you feel that way, but also, and this is really productive advice, don’t feel that way. Don’t feel that way.

Like, your side of the street is clean. And guess what? So is the kitchen.

I always love hearing your grudges. So if you guys have any more grudges to share with us, the phone number is the same. You can call them, you can text them, you can get it, you can write them in an email if you want.

But your grudges are our grudges. There’s three sides to every story, whether it’s Alex’s or whether it’s the cleaning grudge. There’s yours, theirs, and somewhere out there unknowable to everyone, there is the truth.

But like I told Alex, I don’t think that there is a villain to her dating story, aside from the horrible chorus inside of her head telling her that she is wrong, that she is too much, that she doesn’t deserve love and happiness.

She does, everyone does, and grief and trauma are very real, and they also do not mean that you must sacrifice your own needs and feelings and thoughts if you are going to date a person who is traumatized and grieving.

A relationship is, it’s about relating to one another. I’m pretty sure sharing each other’s burdens, sharing each other’s joys, growing with each other, and, of course, learning on each other while you are learning each other.

We aren’t born knowing how to do everything. We aren’t born knowing exactly how to build a healthy relationship when we are not at our healthiest. We aren’t born with the tools we need to understand and get and give every person what they need.

We have to give ourselves the same amount of grace that we give to other people, and sometimes things just don’t work, not because we are horrible or because the other person is horrible, but because we are just people.

And people are, they can be so wonderful, and they can be so clumsy, even when they are trying to be careful. But if you hear nothing else from that conversation with Alex, I want you to hear this.

I want you to hear that you deserve love, that you deserve to be seen and known and considered, that you are not broken, you are not broken, you are not hopeless, you are working it out, you are working on it, and you are doing a good job at a very

hard thing, and that is the nearly impossible task of being a person in this world. And if you have ever experienced magic and connection in a relationship, you have to remember you were a part of it. You are part of the magic.

If you have any words of advice for Alex, or if you want to date her and her gorgeous head of hair, I’m talking bountiful blonde curls. It’s a mane. She has a mane.

Call or text 612-568-4441. You can email thanks at feelingsand.co. I love when we hear from listeners about episodes.

I really do. And we will keep tabs on Alex and keep you updated with any news. This has been Thanks For Asking.

I’m Nora McInerny. I am a remarried widow. I’m a podcaster.

I am a tall left-handed woman. I am a speaker.

I am the author of several funny books about sad things, some of which were discussed in this episode, including It’s Okay to Laugh, Crying is Cool Too, No Happy Endings, and the essay collection Bad Vibes Only.

This is an independent podcast by Feelings & Co, an independent podcast company. It’s just three people, but that counts. We couldn’t do it without you, the people, the people who have feelings and want to talk about feelings.

So thank you for being here. Thank you for every time you have rated and reviewed and shared with a friend or shared it on social media. And again, call or text us.

The information is always in the episode description. We have a YouTube with tons of free stuff. There’s tons of free stuff over on my sub stack where I send out weekly essays.

We got a little chat there. You can get bonus episodes on sub stack or Apple podcasts. You can get ad free episodes over on the sub stack.

The whole back catalog is over there. You could join monthly, you could join annually, or join as a supporting producer who get their name in the credits. But speaking of credits, this episode was produced by Marcel Malekibu.

Our opening theme music is by Geoffrey Lamar Wilson, and our closing theme music is by My Youngest Son, Q. Big, big thanks to our supporting producers, which is people who sign up to support us on the very highest level.

This was updated in June, so we’ll have to check in July. So these are the June ones.

So big thanks to Rachel Annalise Chaney, Augie Book, Joy Heising, No Name, Nancy Duff, Jenny Medain, Kathleen Langerman, Jordan Jones, Ben, Jess, Beth Derry, Sarah Garifo, Kathy Sigman, Sarah David, Mary Beth Berry, my high school gym teacher, Sheila

Crystal, Kaylee Sakai, Virginia Labassi, Lizzie DeVries, Rachel Walton, David Binkley, Lisa Piven, Michelle Toms, Nicole Petey, Melody Swinford, Caroline Moss, my best friend, Michelle O, Andra Brzezinski, Amanda, Jess Blackwell, Abby Arrows, Crystal

Mann, Bonnie Robinson, Lauren Hanna, Jacqueline Ryder, Patrick Irvine, Shannon Dominguez-Stevens, Kathy Hamm, Erin John, Madd, Christina, Emily Ferriso, Elizabeth Berkley, Kiara, Monica, Alyssa Robison, Kaylee, Courtney McCown, Kate Byrjean, Jeremy

Essin, Lindsay Lund, Jessica Letexier, Lexi-Laine Watkins, Alex Gautieri, Robin Roulard, Jill MacDonald, Dave Gilmore, best friend from college, Grace Allendorf, Laura Savoy, Chelsea Cernick, Kelly Conrad, Micah, Jen Grimlin and somehow Micah again.

We’re going to have to take that one out. Hold on. Micah’s not in there. You’re not in there twice are you Micah? Boop, boop, boop. Thank you guys so much for being here.

We will see you again next week.