Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.
Hey guys, it’s Nora.
It is election day and we are practicing a little bit of self-care. We are doing what we did in 2020 when stress was high, tensions were high, and we are providing you with what we call the election distraction episode.
In 2020, I asked my newish friend, we had not actually met in real life, it turns out, but you know, we were friendly on the internet.
I asked my friend Kate Kennedy from the Be There In 5 podcast to come over to our show and do what she does best, which is just talk.
Kate’s podcast is one of my favorite ones because I love to hear women talk, and when Kate puts out an episode, it is often one to two hours of literally just her talking, doing a deep dive on a topic that is interesting to her and by default,
interesting to everybody else because Kate has a way of making things seem very interesting. There are two hours of this conversation, me and Kate in her basement in Chicago, and then there’s two more hours over on Kate’s Patreon because after we
were done recording this episode, we went and got dinner, we took an edible, and we kept the party of two going. So let me sweep you off of your anxious little feet and into Kate’s basement. I think we’re talking about graves.
Yes. It might be a good thing that we’re starting over.
I think it’s a good thing we’re starting over because we’re talking about graves. Also, I forgot to introduce us and I’m Nora McInerny.
And I’m Kate Kennedy.
And this is Terrible, Thanks For Asking, Election Distraction 2024. This is a Patreon exclusive.
This is hopefully hours and hours, nine to 10 hours, I’m going to guess, the final recording will be of just small talk, deep talk, any kind of talk except election talk. We are practicing denial. We are practicing self-care.
We are practicing, what does it do for you to just doom, scroll, doom, consume, like election media?
I’ll tell you what it is.
Yeah.
Kornacki. What is dud? Steve Kornacki and his khakis doing the election maps.
I thought you were talking about a psychological principle, and I was like…
So in my head, it was Kukominsky method.
What even is that?
I’ve never seen it.
I don’t know me neither.
No, Kornacki is the adonis of cable news programming during election season, and he’s gay, and he has a partner. But when I say he’s my type, that’s it.
You see a pair of khakis. You see a khakis do a good side part, and you say, that’s my man.
That’s my man.
That’s my man. I’m going to go get him.
Wreck my plans. Yeah. Do you look at the screen or the person?
I obviously prefer to look at the screen because I want to look at myself.
It’s like doing something like this is like FaceTiming with a toddler.
Yeah. Well, because Kelly and I always look at the screen, so we’re talking to the viewer, but I guess they’re watching us talk to each other. I’ll swap back and forth.
It’s hard.
It’s hard. But I’m looking at you because your makeup looks so good.
You look really good.
Like you walked down to the porch and I was like, stop. Truly. You’re like holding a dog.
You’re wearing like a matching set. Like your house is decorated for fall. I don’t live in a place that has fall.
So I walked down like a leafy street drinking. I got a flavored coffee. I never do that.
And I was like, wow, I get it. I get why people like.
It’s probably Minneapolis adjacent.
Yeah, it is. But I, Minneapolis just feels so different for me, you know? Like it’s hard for it not to be like a haunted city of.
Cause of your own ghouls.
Anxieties of all my old ghouls.
And, but also generational ghouls.
At the graves?
I think we’re back at the graves. We’re back at the graves. I’m not afraid of graves personally, but I do, having been raised Catholic, I think a grave does feel powerful.
A grave feels powerful. But I did just recently go to unfamiliar cemetery, hoping for a powerful experience. And it was flat.
It was, it, it was just not Catholic. Honestly, I could tell.
The cemetery wasn’t Catholic.
It just didn’t have enough like oomph. It was all very like eh.
The Catholics do like to spend money on unnecessary adornments.
Yes. Okay.
That’s what makes them good. That’s what makes the tithing worth it.
It really does. It’s like I want aesthetics. When I go into a house of worship, I want to know who’s in charge here.
Yep.
And it better not be me.
Okay. No.
God no.
No, no, no. I don’t want a consumer experience where I know that I am right and I’m going to get a reclining seat and a gift shop. I want-
A reclining seat at a church?
I swear.
I’ve been in mega churches where it was like, you know, not a full recline, but like a nice rock to it.
A decent like regal cinemas.
Yes. Yeah.
I was going to say I’ve never been to a cathedral without a pretty traditional pew.
Yeah.
But the mega churches, they do it right. They know how to evangelize with- the Catholics do aesthetics best, the mega church sucks you in the best with comfortable accommodations and snacks and games and good music.
Yeah.
They make it fun.
Catholics are committed to no fun.
Yes. Yeah.
Least fun imaginable out of church service.
No fun at all. I went to church with some of the same people for years, and we never exchanged anything more than the sign of peace.
Oh, God.
No conversation. I don’t know their names.
I always wanted to do peace. I was hoping a guy in my class that was cute was nearby.
That’s how he would select my seat. I would guide my family towards Andy Hannon, and he knows that. I’ve said that publicly.
You use names of former…
Full names.
Yeah, you do.
Yeah.
I’m too scared.
Some people are full name people.
I mean, I think he knows because he was on a live show. I did once.
Is that the middle school boyfriend? Yeah. I was on that live show.
A boyfriend?
No, no, no. We’d never spoke. I like just pined for him silently for like, I had to be close to a decade.
That was the episode.
That was me, your middle school crush, and the guy who hosts The Daily.
Yeah, that makes sense.
What a cornucopia.
What a cornucopia. Also, it was three hours long because it was 2020, and I was so unwell. I was so lonely and in a new city.
Was that Happiest Holidays?
Yeah.
It was literally three hours long because I just wouldn’t stop talking.
Oh, yeah. That’s what I do. If you can’t do that on your own show.
Yes. That’s what I said. Where else can you do it?
Exactly.
Yeah.
That was funny. We didn’t know each other then.
No.
That was 2020, and we had only met when we did. What was the episode called?
It was called Election Distraction.
No, it wasn’t. Your episode.
Yeah.
But I had one too.
Yeah. I don’t know.
I think you were on the one called Already There, God, It’s Me at Target. Does that sound familiar?
It might have been. You’re so good at naming things.
Oh, thanks. You’re so good at naming things. But sometimes a good name doesn’t come up.
So pressure’s on to have a good wordplay.
The pressure’s on. Election Distraction 2024.
Should we have gone back and looked at what we talked about that episode to see where…
I know one thing that we talked about because I got an e-mail about it and somebody was unhappy with the way that…
I either get e-mails that are so nice and so heartfelt and someone is revealing something deep and meaningful to them or someone is so mad at me for something that I’m like…
Right.
Like, call your mom. Call your therapist.
But then they’ll say you’re not accountable.
I’m not accountable. I’m not accountable.
That should just be in our bios.
I will not be accountable. It was so… We talked about where people use the wrong words in the wrong places and how I know that’s snobby.
You hate resonate.
I hate resonate.
I hate resonate.
Like, you know, I resonate with that.
I resonate with that.
I resonate with that.
And every time someone says that, I think of you.
And you know what?
Now people are starting to do that with, like, the word endearing.
Like, use it in a sentence.
Like, I’m endearing.
But they’re not complimenting themselves. They’re saying they’re endeared toward something.
Yes. But I’m like, no, no, no. It’s just…
Now I’ll have to find the example because now it will happen on TikTok where I’m like, no, no, that’s not quite right. It’s not quite right. I’ve let go of people describing something, young people, my children, describing something as aesthetic.
Yeah, I was just trying to pick that up.
Yeah.
I’m like, it’s not…
It needs anesthetic.
It has anesthetic.
Aesthetic isn’t the aesthetic.
No.
Yeah. They’re like, that’s aesthetic. It’s like, so you can see it with your eyes?
Yes.
And like language evolves.
But I say the word wrong.
Yeah.
What?
How?
I say aesthetic.
Aesthetic.
Aesthetic.
But people go really… I don’t pronounce the T. Aesthetic.
I say aesthetic.
Aesthetic.
I think aesthetic. Now I don’t know.
Wow. It’s like… Do you want to hear more of our verbal pet peeves?
Because you’re going to solicit more emails.
I know. I know. This is a problem.
And I… But also…
Did they say it was problematic you did that?
They were like, you just hate people. I was like, I do hate people. I hate a lot of people for no reason.
But also, you don’t even go here.
Like, why listen if they don’t like you and they think you hate people?
I don’t know. It was so weird.
It’s so weird, but I used to take stuff like that so deep and so personally, and I would ruin my entire life, truly.
Same. Do you want to know what correction was where I drew the line of engaging? And it’s not that this person did anything wrong.
It’s just that it was, I’m like, I appreciate the knowledge, but we really expect people to know everything about everything we’re talking about, and then kind of treat it like an active.
It’s like ignorance or like negligence isn’t like necessarily something that you were trying to be offensive. You just didn’t know something.
So at one point I was, which I never really get into, you know, telescopes, but at one point I was talking about the James Weber Telescope and like something was happening through it.
You never talk about telescopes?
Honestly, this is maybe the only time. Do you ever talk about telescopes?
It’s, I would say, one of my main content pillars. People come to me for telescopes.
Obviously.
Loss. If I see a telescope, I couldn’t name a single f-ing telescope. I can’t even look through them because I have a hard time closing one eye.
No, if I see one, I think, I’ll just look up at the sky.
We went to like the Botanical Garden for the holiday lights last year, and our youngest kid, they were like, once in a lifetime, look through this telescope, you’ll see something.
And he goes, meh. What am I looking at? But also I knew he couldn’t see it because he was just like going, both eyes open up to the-
But like, what are you looking at?
I never know.
I never know. And also it’s like to close one eye and then try to focus this on eyelashes or touching the thing.
I don’t-
okay, so you brought up telescopes, a hot button topic. You stepped in it.
And okay, I think it’s interesting. To my credit, I knew what the telescope was called. The James Webber Telescope.
I’m shocked.
And I got an email saying, FYI, next time you talk with the James Webber Telescope, you should know that James Webber is notoriously homophobic.
How would I know that?
Like every single thing, you’re supposed to be like, no, before I mention this giant piece of equipment used to look at the sky, let me make sure it’s not named after somebody who might have a differing, abhorrent belief system from mine.
And then it was a rename?
Oh, a white man in the 50s was homophobic.
You gotta be kidding me.
I don’t know what to do. And I don’t remember, the person could have been like, Hey girl, just so you know, in the telescope community, we don’t use his name anymore.
Which is maybe that was the context, but I think I just glanced at it and I was like, okay, we’ve lost the plot.
We’ve lost the plot.
I can’t talk because it was starting to get in my head of like, oh no, because even like advertisers, I’m like Courtney, did you look up who their leadership is? If they’ve ever done anything wrong, did they come?
And I used to go nuts and I can’t do it anymore.
I know.
There’s a scope of work and I think we can be accountable for the things we say, but we can’t always know everything about what we’re referencing.
Right.
Yeah.
Also, it doesn’t resonate with me.
What? Why were you bringing up this telescope? What was that?
What is it?
It must have been something space related.
Yeah.
Obviously, he actually just looked at people through it.
What?
But not gay people.
Not gay people.
So, why did you, literally, what is it? Where is it?
I don’t know if you feel this way about your job, but I used to be marked by my great memory, and a lot of my work is based on my memory, but I’ve lost my memory since I’ve done this show because the churn of information in and out is so high that
Same.
So when people talk to me about an episode, I’m like, I’ve never done an episode about that.
Sometimes people will quote me and I’m like, I have no idea who you’re talking about.
Are you ever like, well, that was kind of like wise.
That must not be me.
Who was that?
Somebody quoting you is maybe the most flattering thing ever.
It is the most flattering. Yes, it really is.
You’re like a big time author, so I feel like people probably quote you a lot.
I don’t know. But when they do, I’m like, did I say that? Are you sure?
Have you ever seen a quote from you on Pinterest that somebody took the time to Canva make into a print?
No, but I also don’t really know.
I use Pinterest so sparingly and I only just restarted using it to make my monthly and quarterly vision boards.
Monthly and quarterly.
Monthly and quarterly. We call them mood boards.
Okay.
But did you ever listen to that so retrograde? It’s kind of an original, an OG podcast. Now Elizabeth Cot, who is on that podcast, has this other podcast called To Niche, which is like niche topics.
You take a niche topic, you haul it, right? You talk about like everything. I really, really like her.
And she was hosting this workshop, like a vision board workshop on Zoom. And I was like, okay, I’ll sign up for it. And it was so amazing.
It was like 30 bucks or something, maybe 40 bucks. And I was like, it was worth it.
I feel like you’d normally be like, you’re a coach coaching coaches, this webinar is shit. Cause I get so sketched out by people that teach people to do really standard things, but you’re saying it was helpful.
It was helpful cause she led you through like the questions that she asks herself and then like the way that she does it. And it was just nice. It was like really nice.
And it was like a good group of people and you got like, she just busted you out into small groups.
And I was just like talking to like a woman I didn’t know, like a stranger, which also felt like kind of good too, to be like, okay, so these are the things that I’m kind of like thinking about.
Because sometimes it’s embarrassing to do with somebody that you know.
Wait, there’s a business there.
There is.
Stranger Soundboard.
Oh.
Stranger Sounding. What’s it called? Sounding Board?
Yeah.
Strange Advice. Stranger Advice. Sounding Board.
Sounding.
Stranger Sounding.
B-O-R-E-D.
Yeah. If you’re bored, go on this app and get paid to listen to somebody’s idea and react to it.
And react to it. Or like just, oh, I want to, I want to, I guess that’s what people use Reddit for, right? Like I’m thinking this thing, is that like an OK thing?
Like bouncing an idea off somebody.
Oh, yeah.
B-N-C-E.
Yeah.
No, no more vowels. No more vowels. So yeah, that’s the only reason I use Pinterest now.
So I don’t really go on it anymore.
So what do, if people want to like get distracted by asking themselves the questions you ask yourself monthly and quarterly, like what are they?
I mean, so part of it is like asking about like what you want the next month to look like. And then I also add like, what are my priorities for this month or this quarter? Like, and what do I want it to feel like?
Feel like meaning what?
Like literally feel like, like what do I want it to feel like?
I want this month to feel like in August, I was like, I had one goal and I was like, I just want to go paddle boarding on the Salt River with my friend.
And that’s the feeling you had?
Yeah. I was like, that was like, no, that was like my one priority, truly. I was like, besides like getting the kids to school and like work or whatever, which is so boring, I was like, I literally want to go paddle boarding on the Salt River.
There was like a picture of like when I was paddle boarding on the Salt River the last time. And then, yeah, it’s like, and searching Pinterest for like, you have to add the word aesthetic.
So it’s not all just like memes or like ads, basically how tos. And so my Q3 one, I can pull it up, actually.
Okay, hold on.
I made one for the year. See, before I did this.
How do you even know what you want? I don’t know what I want in this life.
So I made this one like, this is based on the Kate Bear poem, which is idea. You know, I will enjoy this.
She has a privacy screen on her iPhone.
I do, because I’m a snooper. So it’s like, if I’m going to plan, I’m reading your texts, but you’re not reading mine because I’ve got a privacy screen.
But you would never put it on TikTok. I’ve seen people put people’s texts on TikTok.
We’re going to talk about that. We’re going to talk about that, okay?
People being filmed in public? Yes.
But first we’re going to talk about my vision board. So for the year before I did this, before I did the workshop with Elizabeth, I just had people come over to my house.
We had a stack of magazines, we ripped a bunch of stuff out, and we just like, just the old-fashioned way, right? The old-fashioned way. And I knew that my theme for 2024 was, I will enjoy this life, which is the line from the Kate Bear poem, right?
So, that’s, and then I scanned it.
It’s your background.
And it’s the background on everything. So I see it all the time. And so it says, so there’s all these like little clips, and it’s very peaceful.
There were chickens, there’s like countries, it’s happy living, just one thing. And then I tore the poem up into a bunch of little pieces, and the full poem is up there. But like the thing I see every day is, you know, my life, I will not waste it.
I will enjoy this life because I want to enjoy this, this life and do you think I’ve enjoyed like the past 10 years? I haven’t, I haven’t, I haven’t, not enough. You know what I mean?
It’s like, I was really just so focused on like doing, and like, you know, I was listening into you doing a speaking engagement earlier today, and you’re like, you just have to kind of hit when it’s hot. Yeah.
You think you have to, and you know that too. So it’s like, I just, some of the things I had to do, all the things at one point I did want to do, you know, I did, I really did.
If you would have talked to me like six years ago, I would have been like, there is no limit to my ambition, I will do it all. And I’m like, there are so many limits to it, and I have met all my limits.
No, literally.
I’ve pushed past all my limits, and now it is like, when I hit that limit, I’m going to listen to that limit.
You know what I think we both did, and why we both kind of burned out a little bit at the same time?
Not to project this on to you, but the way I think I hustled so intensely trying to get to a point where I’ve made it, then I would taper off, only to realize this type of work, I’m going to have to be active all the time to make money in some form
of what I’m creating. So I can’t sprint anymore. I have to just figure out a way to subtly do a little bit because I don’t think I’m ever going to hit it big. I think I’m just going to have to hit a lot of stuff and see what sticks for eternity.
Yes. Do you kind of see your career as like, I’m going to do all this stuff and then chill. But then I’m like, that’s never going to happen.
I don’t want to retire, but I want to be selective.
I want to be selective. I’ve never been selective. I’ve never been selective.
I said yes to so much stuff. And also it’s like, I would always say yes in the room, which I don’t do anymore. So it’s like…
Like meaning what?
We have one conversation and you’re like, let’s do this thing.
And I go, yeah.
Oh, okay.
And then I’ve committed.
Yeah.
And then it’s like, but I haven’t thought about my life. I have a hard time conceiving time too.
Oh gosh.
So, you know, like even just as of last week, like I had not, I texted you, I was like, where do you live? Where should I book an Airbnb?
Well, Angie, you put the wrong date on the calendar for the event you were going to. I did, I did.
I also had the right date, but I also had the wrong date.
Yeah, yeah.
You know? But also it’s like I had somehow, yeah, it’s like these things just don’t mean anything to me.
So even last week, like every week, I sit down with the boys and I like go through our, like everybody’s calendar, and then I put the calendar on the wall for everybody to see.
Right.
And I was like, oh my God, I go to Chicago, like Sunday, I did that. And I was like, I leave in two days.
Right.
That’s October. It’s October right now.
And you’re like, I’ll cross that bridge when I get there.
And the bridge is here.
We’re halfway on it. No one told me.
And you got an Airbnb a block from my house.
I did. I was like, I looked up your address last night. I was like, I’m so close.
And that Airbnb is horrible.
It’s so gross.
I would have given you some recommendations.
I know, but also it’s like, I just, I was like, oh, it’s good enough. And even though I know myself to be at this age, an accommodation snob.
I was going to say, I thought you were more of a snob. I’m kind of surprised.
Yeah. Well, I looked at a bunch of hotels from the Point system that I live in. And it’s just like the deals weren’t there.
And then also I was thinking about, I am now focused on when I’m leaving some place, how do I get the easiest, you know? Yes. Like this is the best way to get out.
Yeah, for sure.
It’s staying right here.
So, and like my flight sent in Friday morning. I don’t know. I didn’t, I didn’t, I just don’t think of things.
I just don’t think of things. Sometimes when I’m on a plane, I’m like, where am I going to go when I get there?
Oh, I think we’re probably kind of similar in that like other. So I think when you create for a living, when you write, when everything that’s your end product has to be from scratch from here, I can’t do clerical stuff.
No.
Otherwise, like I kind of need to be in a creative headspace. So Courtney handles so much of life schedule, kind of like Matthew does for you. But then when I have to do it in normal life, I realized like, oh, I’m ill-equipped to function.
Yes. And I go somewhere alone or somewhere not work-related. I’m like so last minute that it’s kind of like, I’m amazed I’ve even gotten this far.
Because like my parents will book plane tickets eight months in advance. I can’t book things more than a week out if I don’t want to go anymore. Yeah.
What if I don’t want to go?
I need flexibility.
Yes, I do too.
Okay, that makes me feel better. Yeah.
I’m the same way, but I am like spending all, I feel like all my money goes to hotels now because it’s like at this point in life, I just I don’t want to do it anymore.
I don’t want to do it.
Yeah.
I also don’t like to travel already.
Yeah.
Like there are people who really enjoy it.
Yeah.
Matthew is one of those people and he’s like, Oh, I love Chicago. Oh God, you got to go.
He likes seeing new places and trying new things.
I know, going places and he’s like, Oh, you know, when I travel, I always try to go to a place I’ve never been.
I’m like, I literally, if I do like a speaking event, if I do a work trip of some kind, I’m truly, I’m at the hotel and I’m at the airport and that’s it.
I know. And I’m kind of like that too. Because, well, that’s what’s work travel for anybody else.
It’s like a consultant. They’re not like at the museums. They’re in and out.
And I think it’s the same thing.
That’s true.
But I also, like, when I travel, I eat meals in other cities. That’s pretty much all I do.
Yeah, I don’t even, I mean, sometimes, then I’m like…
Do you like museums?
No, I hate museums.
God damn. I’m going to say something that I would only say on the Patreon.
So boring.
Generally, I don’t like art. Okay? Generally, generally.
Sometimes they’ll see something that really moves me, but like physical art, I’m sorry. I’m like…
Tax Haven.
Tax Haven! Tax Haven! I’m like, you got to be joking me.
I don’t know. I just, no, I don’t like it. I don’t like it.
It is one of those funny worlds where you’re like, okay, this is pretty boring.
I don’t really get what any of this is, but everyone else seems to like it. So I’m just going to go along with it. Maybe we’re all thinking the same thing.
I like an exhibit. Like, if there’s a Warhol exhibit, if there’s like some sort of artist that I’ve heard of, I’m into it.
But like, I actually was wondering if like, I don’t have, do millennials even at large have the kind of wealth where when we’re older, we’ll still be buying and selling fine art. Like, what millennial can invest in art?
No, we’re going to get it.
We need houses first.
We need, I think about that with, okay, so I also think a lot about my own estate sale, you know, because I’m an estate sailor and I will have a mental breakdown at every estate sale.
Like, I’m like, oh my God, it’s like I bought this old man’s members only jacket because it was in pristine condition.
You think about you being dead.
Constantly.
And people going to your estate and what they’re going to think about you.
And I want them to think I have good things. I want it to be worth it. I want people lined up for my estate sale, but I don’t feel like the days of now, when you go to an estate sale, the people who are dying are like 70s, 80s, 90s sometimes.
They’ve got like that good mid-century stuff, right? We will not have that.
No.
We will not have that. They’ll be like, oh yeah, I’m not lining up for like a Wayfair desk, but thank you, you know?
Yeah, fast furniture.
Yes, fast furniture, fast everything. So this is like also we can’t go down this because I will fall down like a different sort of despair rabbit hole. Landfills.
We’re just, bleh. I know it’s the holiday season, we’re supposed to be shopping for other people, but also I know in my experience, I’m shopping for myself first. So I have a gift idea that is a gift that keeps on giving.
Wait, did you listen to my episode, Air Bud, H-E-I-R? I’m obsessed. I could talk about millennial heirlooms all day because when I’m buying them, I really don’t think I have anything to give my kids.
Because if it doesn’t, if it won’t sell at a Plato’s closet, is your child going to want it?
Plato’s closet doesn’t want anything, but all the things that I have that my kids want, because my kids do go through my stuff.
Yeah.
What do they want? I mean, they want the, most of it is my parents. So like I have these big vintage maps, like maps of the world that were in my mom’s high school.
And when her high school closed, like the girls who went there like could go and like take things and buy things. We used to have a- Looting.
Sanction looting. Catholic looting. And then my parents have this big old table, which I will get from my mom from a library that closed in Minneapolis.
So it’s like a big old heavy, the heaviest table ever. It used to be our dining table.
And they used to make furniture so you couldn’t move.
Yes. Yeah. Like the chair stays.
Yeah.
Yes.
Forever furniture, forever chemicals. Now we have forever chemicals instead.
Oh, it’s so dark. It’s so dark.
So yeah, the things that they want are mostly the things that I got from like vintage stores, antique stores or belong to my parents.
So AKA nothing to do with your legacy and everything to do with what you’ve collected from other people.
Correct.
I hear that.
Other dead people’s things. Yeah. Some jewelry.
Cause like now I’m in, you know, like I follow this account, the Emerald Carrot with a K and she is fascinating.
I want to like do like a TLC show about her or something or her family because her husband’s family for years has been like the people who melt down gold and silver. That’s their whole business. Goldsmith?
I guess. I don’t know what a goldsmith does. A metallurgist.
I don’t know what it is. So they melt it down, I think mostly for like dentists and things, but like they’d melt it down.
They sell like gold bars and like silver bars, which means they buy gold from people, which means they have like a lot of weird like gold and silver ephemera. And she started going through it and being like, these are wild. Can I just sell these?
And they’re like, I don’t care. And so they’re like one of a kind, kind of like weird pieces.
So I, yeah.
So I got like this huge, like tourmaline ring that it’s like this big, Kate. It’s huge. When will I wear it?
I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know what it is.
I don’t know what it is, but I know that I felt rich and I could do a layaway plan. And I did. And now I’ve got this big old ring and every kid wants that ring.
So now when I’m getting things, I’m like, will somebody want this when I’m dead?
That’s a really great way to stop buying like gold for mail. Yeah, it’s hard though. Furniture, jewelry.
But like, I just think that we grew up in such fast trend cycles that I don’t know if I develop taste. Like, I can’t trust myself. I don’t always like things that I buy two years later.
I’m trying to think if I have anything that’s like a real legacy thing. Nothing tourmaline, that’s for sure. But did I tell you that-
We might though, because we don’t know what it is.
There might be, we might be encased in tourmaline right now. We don’t even know.
No, I think it’s made up. Or it’s going to be like pirate, like fool’s hold. Oh my God.
What if it is?
What if it is?
I bought this beautiful ring. I got to look it up.
I tell you, for a week, I got into gold panning.
Oh, if you come to Arizona, we can go do that.
I bought Pay Dirt.
No.
It’s literally dirt. People sell in bags that has tiny flecks of gold in it. You have to buy a panning kit and swirl for it.
And when I tell you, I had a nice time. I did it in my backyard.
That sounds really nice.
I got it for Greg. No, it was a Father’s Day gift because Greg watches like Gold Rush and stuff.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Semi-Precious Gemstone. Okay.
Semi-Yikes.
Yikes.
Yikes. Yikes. Okay.
But okay, something I struggle with in this life is kind of similar to the art convo. When I’m told something is like precious, rare, scarce, desirable, or like a finer things item, I’m kind of like, says who?
Yeah.
Like I struggle with status items because their status feels arbitrary to me because if I didn’t assign it status, it means nothing. It means nothing to me.
Just like all the times when I was in college, after college, where I didn’t know what any designer things were.
Yeah.
So I didn’t know if I was wearing like a knockoff of a knockoff of a knockoff that I got it. Oh. With marshals, you know what I mean?
So like you would be wearing a polo by US Polo Association and not know that it wasn’t Ralph Lauren Polo.
That’s one I could identify.
What is US Polo Association?
What is it?
How did they get away with that?
But like, you know, like I didn’t, I wouldn’t even recognize like the Gucci G’s and then how they’re they’re like, you know, watered down into like vague patterns at TJ Maxx.
Yes.
Like, you know what I mean?
It’s if you it’s like a Monet of far away. It’s a Gucci up close. It’s an A and a K linked together for Anne Klein.
Yeah.
But I was like, you don’t know that she’s appropriating Gucci embarrassingly.
I didn’t know it.
I didn’t know it.
So or I mean, I didn’t know what Tory Burch was.
Or or the Miracami Louis Vuitton when we were yes, college age were really popular.
So then like everything at a TJ Maxx was white with multicolored, like tiny letters or symbols on it. But it wasn’t Louis Vuitton.
But it didn’t make any. I was like, I don’t know. I don’t even know what Louis Vuitton is.
I haven’t even heard of it. So I didn’t really know of it. No, I don’t know.
I just like sort of. Yeah, I didn’t know. I didn’t know that.
And I just remember like my friend’s little sister going, are those sunglasses real? And I go, they’re really on my head.
Yeah.
Like, I have no idea what she was talking about. Are you an illusion?
What are you talking about?
I was like, and now that I look at this picture, I will find a picture.
They were fake what?
They were fake Gucci sunglasses, but I had no idea I got them in Chinatown.
Wow.
You know, I’ve been buying, I’ve been trying to buy secondhand designer stuff because like I like designer stuff, but I just, I don’t want to buy it firsthand. I, you know, give it a second life.
But now I’m pretty sure the stuff on the real real and like Mercari and Poshmark is from DHgate. Yeah, it’s all fake fake. And how do I know how to?
I don’t know.
I know.
And that’s like so, and I remember.
Because it’s all made up. It’s all made up. All of it’s made up.
And like, like boomers, silent generation, greatest generation, they wanted a certain kind of China. Right. That was the status symbol.
It’s all at the Goodwill or it’s in my house. All of it’s in my house. I will, I buy that.
Like it’s my duty.
Do you buy like crystal and glassware? Do you make sure it doesn’t have lead in it?
No, I don’t. Bring me that. No, I don’t.
I don’t care. I’ll drink lead.
They’re going to show this clip someday.
When I have lead poisoning.
How did it end?
How did it end?
I have that green glass that’s like-
Everyone shops at your state sale for the lead that killed you.
Sorry.
What’s that green glass and you like illuminate it?
It’s like, it’s radioactive.
I have that too.
Yeah. It’s like the absence of glassware. Yes.
Yes. Yes.
So I have a lot of that. I do. I also have candy in it.
You have to really be with it for a long time, I think, for it to kill you. So don’t come to my house.
I don’t know. I think that there’s really like such a fine line between, I see a lot of stuff I like, then I feel anxious about the clutter and I stop myself.
Yes. Yeah.
But like, you know how you have cups and they’re just your cups. You saw my cups earlier. Really uninspired, really mismatched.
I thought they were great cups.
At what point as a person do you upgrade and say, let’s get better cups?
I’m going to get better cups.
When you’re not getting married and registering. He’s always getting cups.
Did you register for China?
No.
Me neither.
No.
We don’t have like, in my house growing up, it was hand washed dishware for holidays only. But then on major holidays, my parents were spending all their time gently hand washing. Yeah.
When you don’t want to be.
I have two sets of China from other people’s families. Because they were like, no one wants this. I was like, I’ll take it.
I’ll take it.
And you serve on it at holidays?
No, but I started to just use it in regular life.
That’s what we should be doing.
Just use it.
Just use it. I want to enjoy this life and use, and not use things for special occasions.
I started to use, I bought probably lead crystal, goblets from, okay, my neighbor died, Betty, dead Betty as we call her. And she had, she had the best rugs, Kate. I have so many nice, nice rugs.
I have, like I could never afford, right? Like heavy crystal glasses, all this stuff. And they were so unused.
And I’m like, we’re using these, like we’re drinking milk out of these. And someone was like, milk will ruin the crystal. I was like, I don’t give a shit.
Yeah.
Who cares?
Yeah, it doesn’t matter.
Who cares?
Let the milk ruin the crystal if it must.
How do you ruin crystal?
I don’t know.
I was like, these kids chug milk so quickly.
The milk does not have the chance to sit and be corrosive or cloud it or whatever. Like they’re, they’re tossing it back in, especially if it’s a wine glass of milk. Are you kidding?
Yeah.
A kid’s going to glug, glug, glug.
I love a kid with a mature glass.
So exciting.
They do too.
They’re just like, it immediately elevates their entire life.
They’re like, oh, wow.
It makes you get character.
Yes.
Kind of like how your son wore a business suit to-
Yes.
What were we talking about on that episode about the hamsters?
Oh yeah. He wore a business suit to dinner.
A speaking engagement. You took him.
It’s adorable.
He also, for Halloween, he’s going to be a businessman.
That is precious. Does he want to be a businessman?
I don’t know. Yeah. He wants to, he goes, well, I’m going to be rich.
Rich?
Rich.
Oh, sorry.
I thought you misspoke.
Rich.
Sorry.
I am making fun of him. But only because I love it and we don’t want it. Like he’s in speech therapy, but I’m like, let it go.
Come on.
Did you baby talk to your kids?
No, not really. Maybe.
I do. And you’re like, not supposed to, but I’m like, life’s too short to not baby talk.
Maybe I baby talk everybody though, because I’m kind of goofy. So I’m still making up songs for them every day. Yes.
That’s what I like to hear, because I love the making up songs part of having a kid.
I’m the weird Al of our family.
In my house, there’s no one better than me.
Milk, crystal, milk, crystal, crystal and milk, drinking milk and crystal. See?
You can fit right in.
Yes, you can and you should. So if that’s baby talk, yes. And like they have a million nicknames and stuff like that.
But he got a, not a suit, a briefcase. He got like a briefcase.
That’s so sweet.
And his lunch fits in it.
The youngest one or the youngest? Oh, that’s so he’s like, his lunch fits in it.
Yeah, he’s like, I love this. I love this, but it’s really hard to open. I was like, it’s heavy too.
Briefcases make no sense.
They’re meant to hold paper.
I know.
Which is, who carries paper?
So much paper. It’s like, I like a briefcase because it’s like a little business suitcase. And I, yeah.
Okay.
No, that’s what it is.
It’s a suitcase for your briefs.
Yeah, like paper briefs, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Wow.
Wow.
Breaking down words, origins.
That’s Latin.
Oh my God. Something really just clicked for you. Something really clicked for me.
And then, and then you opened briefcases.
We just had something right before briefcases. And it was, I was raring to go.
Who holds, who carries paper?
Who carries paper? I want to carry paper. That wasn’t it.
Maybe it was.
A suitcase for briefs.
Wait, who’s carrying paper?
Businessmen.
Women. Oh, okay. Women don’t do business.
Women notoriously? No. Okay.
I think a briefcase is obviously from a bygone era, right? Where we’re just, all you do, you just got to carry your briefs on. Maybe you’ll read them on the train.
Maybe you’ll read them at home. Maybe you won’t. Who knows?
But now we travel, like, and by travel, I mean, I walked over here from my Airbnb with so much stuff all the time. I recently saw a woman get on a plane with only, like, just a very small purse. And I thought, that is…
She’s a plant.
She’s an air marshal.
That is wealth. I thought, this is wealth.
There is nothing that you need to do urgently. There’s nothing you need access to. The bags are probably, you know, being shipped down with the car.
You probably skycapped, tipped.
Skycapped, tipped.
No. And I was like, that is, that is enjoying your life, is not needing to jockey for overhead space or under space. It is merely traveling through the airport with simply a small purse.
That’s my husband.
Imagine.
Don’t you think men travel like, my husband just like has AirPods and a phone.
Yeah.
Matthew, you know, Matthew cares, but he’s-
I guess he has a laptop.
I haven’t traveled with him in a long time, so I don’t know.
No, that’s an interesting point because part of me was like, well, is it a great life? Because no one is well, no one is wealthy enough to be able to pay off airlines to work in their favor to get their luggage.
But maybe you’re so rich, you just buy new stuff.
You just buy new stuff. I was like, either this woman is flying to somewhere where she’s like, I already have all the things that I need. So I literally just need to use this as like a taxi cab.
But has that ever happened to you where your luggage is lost and you do have to go straight to a store and buy something for an event?
Numerous times, even if my luggage is not lost.
I still go buy a new outfit.
Vital.
All the outfits I wore, all the outfits I packed, they aren’t even outfits, Kate. They don’t make any sense. Nothing I packed.
Yeah, yeah.
When I pack, I have no idea who I am.
I don’t know what I’m doing when I get there. It’s like, the things I brought, what? What is this?
Right.
Well, I always think Vacation Kate exists, Kate Chen, and I feel like she wears stuff I don’t like and I would never wear here. And I pack for her, but then I get there and I’m like, I don’t wear any of this stuff.
Who is she?
Because you want to use your wardrobe.
Yeah.
But I just want to be wearing the same thing. Yeah, that’s really true. I think that I don’t-
What are these?
These are Target leggings.
They’re cute.
I like the ribbing.
Can I admit something?
Yeah.
So, my sister and I were in the middle of trying to do this Dancing with the Stars dance that like this trend everyone’s doing. And we were trying last night.
And this morning when I was getting dressed, I thought, well, I might as well put on something linkable so I can make money off of the time spent.
How dark is that?
I know.
It’s so bad, Nora.
I know.
I know.
But it’s like, that’s a-
We don’t get a- I think it’s- Okay.
It’s dark to have to think that way or to find yourself thinking that way. Like I admitted to you when I was in the bathroom, I was like, oh yeah, I could post a video that’s like, hey, behind the scene-
What did you admit to me in the bathroom? Sorry.
I admitted to you that in the bathroom, I thought behind the scene at Kate Kennedy’s house, everything smells good. Sometimes I, this is how I know I need-
You wanted to make content in my bathroom?
I was going to make it in the bathroom. I was just going to say I’ve got a hot tip for Kate Kennedy’s house.
I would have been flattered, but then you would have seen a lot of, it’s like what was in the background of my bathroom.
Oh yeah.
I would have been like, because in the one down here, that’s where I keep pregnancy tests, room or mill.
Yeah. I was actually going to post all the pregnancy tests. What do you think this means?
Or it’s like on my white towels, I always wipe my eye makeup with recess abandon.
Same.
I’m just always self-conscious in the background.
There’s something about my home or the way I live that people are going to think I’m disgusting.
I am disgusting.
I think I am too.
No, your house smells so good. Every room smells different.
They mask smells.
My house doesn’t do that. My candles, I’ve got some of the same candles. It’s not the same.
You’ve got warmers?
You’re a scent designer.
Do I have warmers? Yeah.
Okay.
I’m going to tell you something about candle warmers.
Okay.
I said, look at this thing. It’s so cute. Caroline said, you don’t need a candle warmer.
What are you going to warm your candle? Light it like a grownup. Who’s the number one?
I have the exact conversation with Caroline.
Who’s the number one lover of candle warmers now?
Caroline Moss.
Caroline Moss.
And this is where, this is the fracture in the relationship.
She doesn’t believe that we can influence too.
Yeah.
Guess what?
Guess what?
Yeah. Guess what I get?
Guess what?
Guess what she likes now?
The Beats Flex.
I’m going to buy the Beats Flex in two seconds.
We love them. We love them.
You got me to buy that chair.
Oh yeah. You have a better base than I do. I don’t have that cute base.
I took that from another chair.
Because mine didn’t come on wheels and I wanted wheels, so I took apart another chair and put the wheels on it.
That’s great. You do a good job. I don’t want wheels.
It’s so, I can’t have wheels. It’s too much movement for me. There’s one extra variation.
Do you sit crisscross applesauce?
Okay, same. I think that I am in for a lot of orthopedic issues based on how I sit, but I like to be comfortable. My thinking pose is one leg up.
Mostly I’m like this.
Okay, whenever I sit like that on Instagram, people are like, why are you bent in half?
Oh, this is so comfortable.
Same.
So it’s the best way to sit.
Yeah.
Well, maybe we’re both disgusting and we sit weird.
We’re disgusting weird sitters and that’s what people say about us.
We’re disgusting weird sitters. Is that the episode title?
Oh, I was gonna get your oracle deck. It’s on my desk.
Oh, that’s so nice. We’re disgusting weird sitters. Okay, now I’m gonna pick up the thread that you dropped nine years ago, which is recording people in public.
Oh.
Which is, I guess, legal, right?
Like, you don’t have a right to, like, technically, legally, you don’t have a right to privacy when you are in a public space, sure. But I don’t think that anybody anticipated what that would mean with, like, technology, right?
So I don’t like when people post ring videos of, like, delivery people or, like, I mean, unless that delivery person consented, you know, to having, like, this…
Unless it’s you sliding down the driveway.
Unless it’s me sliding down the driveway, which my own child recorded and laughed at. I just don’t, you know, I’m like, I don’t like that. And I don’t like when people, like, trust me, everybody has had horrible moments in public.
I’ve seen people do banana stuff. And every once in a while, I’ve been like, should I record this for, like, public safety reasons? Right?
You know, like, should I just for, like, the, you know, like, in case anything goes, like, absolutely nuts. But I’m not going to put that on TikTok.
And, like, when people put those moments or, like, I see this all the time where people are like, hey, if your husband is, you know, if your husband’s on this plane and his name’s Jared, he’s flirting, he’s cheating on you with a woman sitting next
to him. And I’m like, one, is that how any woman wants to find something out?
I know.
Okay, thank you.
I am so happy.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
I wish I could collect data about how many people from those situations used it or broke up, or it led to something.
Because what I don’t get about TikTok, if you’re not a creator, if you’re not trying to do it for a career, does your average, everyday person use their TikTok account to get clout?
I don’t know.
Like, what is… I don’t know, whenever those are posted to accounts with very little videos or back history, I’m like, what is this for? What is it doing for you?
Yeah.
Share it with your friends.
Yeah.
But the Jen Pop?
Yeah.
But maybe it’s that looking for that lightning in a bottle of like the…
Remember the Couch Girl? Couch Girl. Yeah.
I don’t think that… I think that was a person posting to their friends.
Yeah.
That got… The people got served it and like it took off.
Where’s Couch Girl though?
I think she’s still with him. She said, we didn’t understand. I know.
Oh, honey.
We understood.
But if Matthew was on a plane flirting with Ashley Jennifer…
I would literally be so proud of him.
Really?
I would be like, I am so… He talked to a woman he didn’t know.
Really? I’d squash Greg like a bug.
Oh, I’d be like, oh, buddy, that’s so cool.
Good for you.
Good for you. And also, I think he could use that like sort of self-esteem boost. I think it’s good to have like some like harmless flirtations in your life.
Or, you know, I think it’s important. I don’t know.
This is where we, our roads diverge in the Yellowwood because you have reverse imposter syndrome.
Yeah.
You have reverse body dysmorphia.
Yes.
And you walk into a room and think everybody thinks I’m a smoke show, correct?
Yeah, I walk into a room and I think I am…
The best looking person.
The best looking person in this room.
Okay.
That is me on opposite day. I’m the opposite of all of those things.
But then also I will so quickly fall into the pit of despair and be like, something will challenge my self-image. Like I’ll see a photo of myself and I’ll be like, that’s not true. That’s not it.
That’s no. I’m actually… I don’t look like that.
Misinformation. Misinformation, disinformation, fake news, altered reality. No.
And then I have either a lot of confidence work-wise or I have none. I would say, I hold myself back from texting you like, what am I doing with my life? Should I go be a postal worker instead?
They do have good benefits.
They have the best benefits and I love the uniform.
And I think you could really spice up the morale.
I love the people at my post office so much.
I go there.
Mine hate me for the doormat days.
Oh, yeah. But haven’t they gotten over that?
A lot of heavy items. Well, I don’t think they remember me now, but I think it’s just a, it’s not a pleasant place for me to be. It’s a lot of dark times at the post office for me.
Yeah.
That would be an interesting job that, like, I do wonder sometimes if something kind of like repetitive hands-on where you interact with people and you could maybe pleasantly surprise them by being pleasant.
Yeah.
If that would, like, kind of be really fun.
Yeah.
No one’s expecting to have fun at the post office, the DMV.
That would be interesting to have personality hires.
Yeah.
Not that people don’t have personalities there, but, like, it’s a job. Like, you don’t have to perform at your job. Yeah.
But if you really like people.
Yeah. I think it could be a great job. That’s my mailman.
My mailman is, like, a delight. Really? Every time we see him, we’re like, oh, we’re so excited to see him.
He’s, like, he’s so happy.
Oh, my gosh.
He’s great. He’s great.
I’m not friends with my mailperson.
That’s okay. That’s okay. I just happen to see him a lot.
I don’t know why.
Now that I think about it, he is at my house a little.
Yeah. Is this how we find out?
You’re such a jealous person, and I’m jealous that you’re not jealous.
Yeah, I’m not jealous anymore.
You used to be, though? Oh, yeah. That makes me feel better.
I mean, I was jealous of everything.
I was so jealous of everything. And then my husband died, and I was like, yeah, who cares? Like really?
Why do you have to force perspective on me?
No, really, like he got sick, and then I was so jealous of his ex-girlfriend.
She’s so pretty. She’s so pretty. Katie, so pretty.
She’s like a 6’1 Mandy Moore. So it’s like, and bigger boobs than me.
But you’re a 6’1 beautiful blonde woman.
I saw her and I was like, I hate myself.
You’re a 6’1 blonde Miley Cyrus.
I wish. She was so pretty. She’s funny.
She’s quick.
I’ve never put that together, but when somebody said that about you, I was like, oh, really?
You do.
Wow. I receive it. I receive that compliment.
Yeah.
I receive it.
And there’s no offense, but you don’t have been getting a lot lately.
Tapping videos?
No, no, no, no, no, no. I’ve been getting Britney in my homes.
That’s something.
And I say…
So how do we approach this subject?
I say, also people will, okay, this is again, people will send me something and be like, I thought this was you. And they will send me a picture of a person that I don’t think is pretty. And I’m like…
That’s what I was about to dive into.
Do we admit what I think everybody feels, which is, you are beautiful no matter what they say, words can’t bring you down, sure.
But when somebody tells you you look like somebody that you don’t personally find attractive, those words will bring you down. It brings you down. And it’s not personal to the person because they’re pretty in their own way.
It’s just that you didn’t think you looked like that in your throne.
100%. In my eye, I already know what I look like. And so I’m like, no.
Brittany Malmes is an interesting one where she represents a lot of things to different people and you hear all sorts of things about her.
And at the end of the day, she’s kind of like just doing the thing where you get extensions and you really like kind of play up the… Like, okay, I’m gonna explain this.
Growing up as a blonde person or that tried to stay blonde, there comes a point where I feel like done up, I look pageant-y. Yes. And I don’t want to look like someone who looks pageant-y because I’m trying to not do that.
And I feel like she kind of does have the…
The same pageant.
The done up wax.
Yes.
It’s for some people, but not your vibe. Yes.
But I think like in my early… I did go through… I think everybody did in 2016, 2017.
Oh, yeah. We were… It was the heavy glam.
I definitely did that.
I was one blowout away from McGregor and Christine. I’m hers. She’s me.
One false lash.
On my head.
I had eyelash extensions. I had… Yeah.
I was contoured to the max. To the max. So much.
So, yeah, I can get it. And there is… I have a certain level of admiration for some level of artifice, too.
I really do like it.
Yeah.
You know, I love Lisa Barlow getting a full glam on Salt Lake City.
She’s my everything. I love her, too. And I can’t…
I actively look for reasons to interpret objectively terrible things she does to explain away her behavior. And I was relieved on this past episode where they had that gorgeous conversation with Bronwyn. That blew me…
That was a beautiful, unedited, long conversation. Bravo doesn’t usually put full…
Yeah.
Anyways, I was like, oh, thank God Lisa Barlow’s crying. She has empathy. Like, I felt relieved that tears came from her eyes because sometimes I’m like…
Like, you’re running every bridge with every friend.
Yeah.
And how Meredith Marx forgave you for hot mic moment if I overheard you being like, you fucked every guy in New York, I think our friendship might be different.
Kate, why?
Everyone says that about me.
Everyone says that about you when they go to the bathroom and they’re just blowing off steam. I was like, Bravo did her so dirty with that though.
They really did.
They really did.
I don’t have things that mean to say about… If I was caught on a hot mic, mad about you, I couldn’t think of things that mean to say. I’d be like, that tall drink of water, their Miley Cyrus mouth, and her Britney Mahomes eyelashes.
What do I say? She said the cruelest meanest shit.
I know, and your whole family who poses.
It wasn’t… Somebody acted like that was a fluke, an accident, and I was mad. I’d be like, yeah, but you still dug the words up.
Yeah.
They came from somewhere.
They came from somewhere.
You had a word bank.
Which I also wonder, though, how much of… Like what we didn’t see about her and Meredith’s relationship, too, because Meredith is such a good… I don’t know, like…
She slips and slides through stuff.
She’s sneaky.
Yeah, yeah.
And it’s kind of like, well, now we do know that you fucked half New York, because why would she arbitrarily say that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And your marriage was an open marriage, and that’s fine.
Is that confirmed?
I think that, I mean, she said they redid their prenup.
Whatever happened to their podcast, everyone thinks they can do what we do.
Yeah, as you can’t, not everyone can. Not everyone can.
You can start a line of bath bombs, not a podcast.
Also that they would record it at a kitchen table.
Ugh, never.
I was like, what is going on here? What is going on?
That is that, no, a kitchen table is last resort. Last resort. For like environment vibes, you never see people in like highly produced podcasts sitting at the table.
No, not at a kitchen table.
No.
No, no, no, you won’t.
It’s a lot of sound bouncing. It’s very cold sounding. You don’t want that.
You don’t want that. Meredith Marks, Banged Half New York, Lisa Barlow, I will also find anything.
How did we get there?
I can’t remember other than apologizing.
We love artifice.
Oh, I do. I love a full glam. I love all of that.
I love Whitney looking absolutely.
Oh, yeah. I love her Whitney. I was thinking Whitney’s Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and how she changed her hair every scene and so did her husband.
Oh, yeah.
But I hope you hear me quote you all the time.
I quoted you in my book. I quote you on every podcast episode and every time I do a ritual ad.
Every time I hear my name on your podcast, I’ll say this behind the paywall.
I need to make money.
Yeah.
I feel weird selling anti-aging things. I feel awkward about it.
Yeah.
But I also am a person that wants to anti-age. Yeah. In your book when you said that brilliant line about not wanting, I always botch it.
It’s like to age is a gift, but I don’t want to look at some type of thing. I’m like, that’s exactly the dichotomy of how I feel, in that it feels less honest to avoid the anti-aging stuff and pretend like I’m not interested.
I’m not trying to trick anyone into thinking I’m 20. I don’t want to look 20, okay? I just want to hold on to what I look like in my mind, whether or not that’s accurate for like, I don’t know, like as long as possible.
I don’t know. It’s complicated.
I’m chasing my peak. In my head, I haven’t reached it yet.
No, I haven’t either.
Yeah, of course not.
No, God no.
It’s only going to go up.
It’s only going up. It’s only going up along with everything else. Okay.
Oh, yeah. Everything else. It’s the best is yet to come.
And yeah, I don’t think we could get hotter.
Yeah.
I think I am hotter now than I was when I was 21. I was not that cute when I was 21.
I it depends how you define hot from the male gay. Yeah, I’m better looking from the female gaze now and way less from the male gaze.
Possibly same.
You know what I mean? Because I think we now base our style and our taste on what we see other women do that we like. And I’m not soliciting male attention, but I used to actively solicit male attention.
100% same.
Yeah.
Because they cared how straight my hair was, so I don’t know what I’m saying. I think I thought I was pursuing it. But I was just really tan, would show my boobs more, and had bleach blonde hair.
Yeah.
But do they like that or did we just assume they did?
I think we just assumed they liked it.
I don’t think anybody has ever. I don’t think any man has ever really cared that much.
Yeah. It’s almost just the lore of gentlemen prefer blondes, which is fucked up by the way. Yeah.
Also, I do think that mentality encouraged me to hide behind my hair. Have you been blonde most of your life? Same.
I feel like I-
But yet, am I?
I mean, look at me.
Am I? Am I?
Yeah. Yeah.
Compared to your yellow vest.
I know. Again, it’s a hard color because now the hair looks yellow.
Why does that look mustard on screen?
I know. I know.
It’s so much brighter in person.
It’s really bright and it’s like a good bright yellow in person, but not on screen.
You should have coordinated outfits.
I know. But I didn’t even coordinate outfits with myself. I barely coordinated an outfit.
You didn’t coordinate that vest with that shirt.
I did not.
I barely put together an outfit. It was so bad.
You look so cute.
Thank you. I don’t feel-
What was the thing you wanted to thread that I then got you off track again?
I don’t remember.
No, it was important to you.
Oh, it’s filming people in public. There we go.
Did we get through it? No.
I don’t even know how we got, of course, but you feel strongly against it.
Oh, you said you were a jealous person, and then we started talking about how hot Katie was.
Yeah.
Then-
Oh, what’s- Yeah. Can you show me Katie later?
Oh, yeah. She’s so pretty. I cemented in my brain as a deep dive I did into my husband’s Facebook right after I met him.
What was so cool about Facebook at the time in the early 2010s is, people didn’t know to make stuff private. I don’t even think we had privacy preferences. So I excavated his entire relationship history for a good night activity.
And without that, I wouldn’t know what these people look like. And I don’t know if I’m better off for it. Sometimes I do wonder where they are.
And if they know that his wife is a mid-level podcast.
Oh, I think they know. Oh, I think they know. Okay.
I think they know.
My friend asked me to MC my high school reunion. And you tell me, don’t you think it is so corny to be like, the person from my high school that has this job, and I also like, it’s a little on the nose for me to MC the event.
I think you should MC the event. I think it’s a great fit for you.
I don’t know. Okay.
I mean, she’d never post because she’s cool.
She has a fulfilling life outside of the Internet.
She’s second from the left. I mean, imagine.
Oh, yeah. She’s a toothy brunette.
Yeah. So pretty.
Every guy married to a tall blonde gal actually wants a short toothy brunette.
But she’s tall. She’s taller than me.
She’s tall.
And she played college volleyball. I didn’t play college volleyball.
I was like, you played high school only.
Yeah.
And then I met her and I was like, I get it. I get it.
I get it.
And then, yeah, and I’m like, I don’t know. Everyone dies and nothing matters. Like, you know, and yes.
Yeah.
But I was never I wasn’t jealous.
Like Erin always had like work crushes. Lisa, you know, you are Annie. I have a crush on Annie.
Everyone has a crush on Annie. And like I I like always liked that.
Like he had like a little work crush because it almost makes it less threatening that it’s out in the open.
Yeah. And like and you know, you just like get in the car and be like, so, you know, like, well, and he said this. I’m like, I know, and he’s the best.
And then, you know, like, I’ve always had like little like flirtations and like crushes. I don’t really have one right now.
I haven’t flirted with somebody in 20 years.
Oh, God, Kate, you have to do it.
People don’t flirt with me. I’m not a person that.
Yeah.
Really? No, people don’t flirt. And people in college used to like kind of make fun of me for how not flirtatious I was, which still bothers me.
Because I kind of be like, oh, it’s almost like somebody tells you who you are and you believe it. It almost made me feel like ill-equipped around men because my friends would be like, you’re a bad flirt.
But I think it’s because I lead more with like quirkiness and fun facts than with my body. Yes, yeah. Sorry.
Oh my God, no, same, same.
I couldn’t even get it out.
I’m your size as a man most of the time.
You know, I’m like, we’re peers, okay?
No, that’s true.
Physical comedy, feats of strength.
Yeah, yeah. Like those are-
Like Smash of Watermelon Gallagher.
I don’t know.
I don’t- And I probably lead with knock knock jokes or fun facts. I more so am just like-
Hey, bud.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that I don’t- This is where the purity culture piece things in.
I really do theorize that. I learned that I just being a woman meant I was such a temptress. I wanted to do everything in my power.
So the person I was talking to knew I wasn’t tempting them and trying to make my Christian brother stumble. So I don’t think I ever learned how to flirt.
Okay.
Were you raised Catholic though?
My mom and my mom’s whole family is Irish Catholic Midwestern.
Okay.
But my dad was Southern Baptist. They met in the middle, Methodist. But then I got-
Catholics are such stumps.
We are.
We’re so-
It’s so weird.
I never think about the fact that I’m on camera.
It’s so weird to have a superiority complex.
Yeah.
About your religion, which is so-
My sister and I talked about that.
Tell me how elite and well run your organization is in modern times.
The things that my parents made me feel superior over. Being left-handed.
Okay. I didn’t even know that about you.
That’s my second personality trait.
Had no idea.
Okay. Being tall, being Catholic, and for some reason living in the city of Minneapolis. My parents looked down on anyone who lived in the suburbs, and so we were superior because we lived in the city of Minneapolis, so.
Mean streets.
Mean streets.
It is very suburban. I don’t know how to explain.
Did you grow up in a townhouse, row house, city?
No.
We’re building in a single-family home with a yard in a city. Yes. Like this home?
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I actually would feel like my kids were cool here because if they wanted to play basketball, we would have to be in the alley with the rats.
Yes.
Which adds an edge to your existence.
I grew up with an alley. But I’m like, yeah, why do I feel superior about Cathales?
You don’t even practice it and you just sculpted my method.
I just sculpt it in Methodist. I don’t know anything about it. Just something about the name.
I’m so triggered because the way that…
Okay.
People are very confused about my religious background because we went to a Methodist church as a family, but then when youth groups and ropes courses and pizza parties started, I went into these evangelical Southern Baptist or Assembly of God
mega-churches. But then when I got out of that, as an adult, I mostly go to Mass with my mom.
So I’ve had experience in a lot of different churches, and I got married in a Catholic church, so I got put through the ringer by the Archdiocese of Chicago and everyone involved, who went out of their goddamn way to make sure I knew how lucky I was
to be marrying a Catholic boy. And they put me, I had to bring three, I don’t even, to have this many friends, I had to bring three friends on a weekday during work hours to sign an affidavit that I was a good enough person to marry a Catholic.
That’s why I didn’t even do that.
And I was just like, what are we doing?
You’re losing people by the dozens. Have you seen Spotlight?
Like, are we just pretending like you’re a respectable organ? I mean, no offense to the Catholics.
No, I know, I know.
Here’s the thing. I love tradition and I got married in the Catholic Church. Like, I like the tradition, the holidays and the familial elements of religion.
I just hate a lot of the practices and exclusionary parts.
Yeah.
And I don’t know where that leaves me. And I don’t mean to talk shit because my mom’s still a devout Catholic.
But I will say, they are, for a religion based on, you’re tired, you’re poor, you’re hungry, Jesus, what would Jesus do is not be Catholic because it is so exclusive.
It is very exclusive.
It’s very exclusive. And I just, you know, but you have that complex still buried in you. And that’s going to be, I guess my hot mic moment will be that tall, blonde Miley Cyrus mouthed, Britney Mahomes looking Catholic.
Yeah.
Think she’s so good. Think she’s so superior because she’s going to do the seven sacraments. I don’t even know if there might be.
I don’t resonate with the seven sacraments.
Guess what?
I don’t either.
I don’t either. I don’t either.
That’s just boring.
It’s so boring. I’m so sorry. I’m so bored.
I’m so sorry. We should probably steer this out of religion quick, but also I think everybody can agree on that. My mom’s like, it’s very meditative.
And I’m like, is it?
It’s ritualistic. My mom’s like, the beauty is that anywhere you go in the world, it’s the same.
It’s the same. Yeah.
But I’m also like, it must be nice to travel that much. Like who’s going, how many churches? I guess you do go to a lot of churches when you’re traveling.
Yeah. But yeah, I’m going to get over the scoffing at the Methodists because I’m not really a proud Methodist, but I’m at a new side of you today.
Yeah. I don’t know why. My dad would look down on the Lutherans.
He was like, Lutherans.
But without Martin Luther, would we have had the Protestant Reformation?
We’d still be, no. It’s also like, well, what do they need to reform? You were buying your way into heaven.
Okay, so there was a little grease in the home. Indulgences.
I loved indulgences. I love indulgences.
If I could buy my way to heaven, I would raise hell my whole life and pony up at the end.
For all my friends. One for around for all my friends. An indulgence for all of my friends.
Yeah.
Karma takes all my friends to the summit is basically what that is.
It was about indulgences. That was Catholic lore.
Indulgences, as a word, has the same energy as mitochondria being the powerhouse of the cell. It’s like a specific thing I remember from a subject I remember hardly anything about where I thought, I like that.
I like that. I remember it being presented as like, can you believe this? And I was like, is that still a fail?
No.
Can I still get an indulgence?
Yeah, I should look into this because it’s like, the more you pay, the more, like how convenient, the more sin you’re absolved of.
So if you’re poor and you messed up, you’re screwed.
Yeah.
I’m Nora McInerny, and you just heard an excerpt from our latest podcast episode. You can get the full episode, our entire back catalog, and two new episodes a month through Apple Plus or on our Patreon, which is linked in the show description.
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