“Seahorse Dad” from Refamulating

In case you didn’t know, we’re still making two episodes a month for our Patreon and Apple Plus subscribers. We wanted to give all of our listeners a little preview of our most recent episode!

 

Consider joining our Patreon to listen to the rest of the episode(or watch the episode!), get additional bonus episodes, ad-free episodes, and join a community of Terribles. (Or, if you’re an Apple Podcast listener, you can sign up for TTFA Premium right in the app!)

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Refamulating, one of our other shows at Feelings and Co, is back today with its second season! To celebrate, we wanted to share one of their episodes from season 1. It’s called “Seahorse Dad” and features former TTFA guest Liam Magan (from Liam and the Letters).

 

When Nora interviewed Liam a few years ago, he shared his experience of coming out as trans and the conflict that caused with his evangelical family. Liam is in a very different place in his life these days, and in this episode of Refamulating he talks about his journey of trying to get pregnant as a trans man.

 

Listen to the new season of Refamulating now!

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

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In February 2022, we released an episode of Terrible, Thanks For Asking called Liam and the Letters. It’s the story of a trans man navigating a huge change in his life and the reactions that he got from his family as he made his transition.

It is a story of self-acceptance and self-discovery, and it had a happy ending to the episode, but the end of an episode is never the end of a story, and even a happy ending is never really the ending as long as life goes on, and life did go on.

A lot has changed in Liam’s life since that first episode came out.

So when producer Claire McInerny launched the podcast Refamulating, a podcast about the many ways to define, redefine and create a family, Liam reached out because he had an update on his life.

Liam himself was in the midst of Refamulating once again. This is that episode. I hope you enjoy it.

There’s an entire first season of Refamulating available for you to binge right now, and season two has just released.

Liam Magan knew from a young age that he wanted to be a parent.

My sister and I would make PowerPoint presentations of our future families. Like husband, wife, the kids, their names, what they like to do.

A lot of us had some version of this PowerPoint. Maybe it was playing mash with your friends and seeing if you’d marry your crush from school and live in a shack with 12 kids. Or just using dolls to simulate a family as you played house.

Liam used these PowerPoints as a child’s version of a vision board.

So I would find some redheaded stock images of children, those from my kids. I always imagine a son and a daughter, just such the traditional, you have one of each kid and then you’re good kind of thing.

Obviously being transgender back then, I was growing up as a girl and so I was the mother in that role and I had a husband and two kids usually and then it’s funny, one of my childhood friends growing up, we would play house and I was Mike and she

Liam is now 30 years old.

He transitioned from female to male eight years ago and has been living as a man ever since. During his transition, there were moments when he thought he wouldn’t or couldn’t have kids. But recently, that dream of becoming a parent has resurfaced.

Like many people in their 30s, Liam is surrounded by friends and family who are having kids, and he loves helping out and being an uncle.

Oftentimes, I would hang out with my friend to help her with the kids on Tuesdays while her husband was working. And so, like, she had an appointment. The two-year-old’s sleeping in the backseat.

We did a car nap. I’m feeding the baby a bottle on the front seat, and I’m, like, scrolling on Instagram. And I saw a video pop up of, like, a transgender man’s, like, birth story.

And in the past, like, I would say, like, three or four years, there’s been a lot more representation out there of, like, trans or non-binary people giving birth and being pregnant. And so it had been kind of, like, something. I was, like, huh.

I was watching that video, and, like, the baby’s, like, she would always, like, play with my beard while I was feeding her the bottle, and so that I’m just, like, looking at her, and I’ve just watched this video.

And I was, like, I want to get pregnant.

It just, like, came over me so quickly. And I was, like, I want I want to do that, too. I want to be a parent and they want to try and get pregnant.

Today, on the season one finale of Refamulating, we share Liam’s emotional and physical journey as he prepares for pregnancy as a transgender man.

Liam wanted to share his story with us after listening to the show, especially episode two, the story about Tony, the single dad.

Sometimes it surprises me of how amazing it is to be a single dad, rocking it and loving, like, we’re doing this.

Like, he’s like, Liam told us that that story made him feel more seen as he embarks on his own journey to single fatherhood.

I got so excited when Liam reached out because the purpose of this show isn’t just to tell stories through a podcast, it’s to remind everyone who’s listening that you’re not alone.

We’re all part of a bigger family than the ones we came from and the ones we’re building. The purpose of this show is to create a sense of connection and togetherness for all people who are refamulating.

And we do that by sharing our stories, by being seen and heard. As for Liam, the family he envisions these days looks very different from his childhood PowerPoint fantasy.

He won’t be a dad named Mike with a wife named Kathy, and there won’t be 27 kids. But what has stayed the same is his intense desire to have children. And now he’s making it happen.

Liam lives in New Hampshire, where he grew up in an intergenerational home with his parents, sister and grandparents. He officially came out as transgender when he was 22, and started the process of transitioning.

But he knew well before then that something in his life wasn’t quite right.

It was always there, and I didn’t really understand all the different things that I was doing, or the ways I was self-soothing.

Growing up, I always wore a backwards hat, so that I didn’t see my hair, or I wore my hair in a bun at the back of my head. That’s gender dysphoria. I was feeling something, figured out a way to correct it for myself.

When they made you line up boys and girls in school, I always went to the boys line. And then they were like, go back over here. And I’m like, oh.

It just was like, yeah, I’m going to line up over here. If someone had asked me then, do you feel like a boy? I’d be like, yeah.

And I think like so many things in my life could have been different if I had access to like the terminology to express how I felt. But I just didn’t know. I was like, maybe this is how everyone feels.

They just feel like disconnected from their self all the time and like this little chaotic experience emotionally inside.

The disconnect Liam felt inside was confusing and distressing. Internally, he felt like a boy, but everyone in his life treated him like a girl.

And even I remember like fifth grade when they teach you like about your own body. I was just like, I feel like I’m in the wrong class. Like I don’t think I should be having this information.

But I just had like no way to to express that and to anyone in a way that like made sense.

I remember as a kid, I would like slam my hand in the door or like kick my bedposts like a hundred times really hard or like try and smash my finger with a hammer, like anything to like output that discomfort I had in myself.

High school and middle school sucks for everyone, but like it’s more so sucking when your body is starting to change in a way that just doesn’t feel like it should.

Liam came out as a lesbian in high school. But when he went to college, he met transgender people for the first time and finally understood something crucial about himself. That’s when he started to learn about the idea of transitioning.

Even then it was still like maybe, but I don’t think I could ever do anything about it because my family won’t support it.

And it was just kind of like, I don’t know if I’ll ever do it. But finally, I decided to shave my head. So I had always had really long hair and I decided to shave it off because I was just like, I’m going to be a cool shaved head lesbian.

And so my friends, we all got together in the lobby of our college dorm and shaved my head and then I went and looked in the mirror and it was like, Oh, like it just was like a lightning bolt.

All the like small things I’d said and done throughout my whole life just like made sense on like all of a sudden.

I don’t know how to describe it, but it was like the first time I saw myself in the mirror and not just like a reflection in the mirror. I was just like, oh, there you are. That’s the person I’ve always known was there.

And I can finally see it reflected back to me. Yeah, I am transgender, and oh, shit, now I’ve got to do something about it.

When he shaved his head, surrounded by supportive friends, it unlocked something in Liam. He felt brave enough to transition into the man he knew himself to be. And the summer after he graduated from college, he started testosterone.

Taking testosterone was a major step in his transition. The hormone changed his body to take on more masculine qualities. He stopped menstruating.

He started growing more body and facial hair. His voice deepened. And most importantly, he started feeling like himself.

And then a year and a half later, I had top surgery to have a flat chest.

In the early days of Liam’s transition, the idea of getting pregnant in the future would have horrified him.

Pregnancy became something that like was very feminine and only women do it.

And so I kind of like disconnected myself from that. And I was like, I never want to do that. I don’t want, you know, to be associated with anything female anymore, especially like an early transition.

Everything is like much more fragile. You know so much who you are, but like nobody else knows. And the world is perceiving you in a way that you don’t want to be perceived.

And so it’s like you kind of have to like push from one side to the other to tolerate that, I guess.

One of the challenges about coming out as trans was telling his parents.

For a while, it was very much like, we’re not going to call you Liam. We’re not going to call you he. We can’t support this.

You’re always going to be our daughter like very hard. And there was a period of time where we didn’t talk at all.

Liam’s rocky relationship with his parents after coming out is the topic of an episode of Terrible, Thanks For Asking, another podcast in our network.

And this is Terrible, Thanks For Asking.

That episode is called Liam and the Letters.

I remember a photograph of me as a kid. Like I don’t have like memories where I’m in a child body, but it’s like kind of just like a black hole of nothing when I try and think back.

We’ve linked that episode in our show notes if you want to hear more about that chapter of Liam’s story. So things were tough with his parents, but he did have support from other adults in his life.

His grandparents, who he grew up with and was very close to, actually supported him unconditionally.

We’re like, you know, we’ve been waiting for you to tell us like what’s been wrong. And like we love you no matter what. And like my grandfather, who’s since passed away, he was like a huge advocate.

He went to the library and he got as much literature as he could to just try and understand and he wanted to support me the best way that he could. And my grandmother is just she’s come to me to all sorts of different, like, trans activism stuff.

She calls me my name in front of them. And like, it’s just so great. I had asked my grandmother about it, like several years later.

And she was like, yeah, I always wanted to ask you like what’s going on. And then my grandfather was always like, no, just wait, like he’ll come when he’s ready.

These days, Liam’s relationship with his parents is better.

Our relationship has very much ebbed and flowed. And over the recent years, and the point that I’m at now with it is like, we agree to disagree about like my transition.

They still like wish that I was their daughter and that I would like marry a man. They’ve been in their beliefs for so long that that’s just their world view. And I’m not going to change that in the same way that they’re not going to change mine.

And so I try to just like meet them where they’re at, which is like, they call me a nickname, they call me Red, so that like neither side is hurt by the name and use.

My parents are wonderful, awesome people and like in all other aspects, like other than this one major thing. But like my sister has a son and I see them as grandparents.

And I’m like, they’re wonderful grandparents and like, I have a very close connection with my grandparents. And like, I would want my child to be able to have that opportunity to have that kind of relationship.

We’re just going to kind of start from where we’re at now. We’re not going to like think about the last like decade and a half of things that were like really hard between all of us.

I just really am focusing more on like, what can I cultivate for my future family versus like getting stuck in all the hurt in the past.

And Liam is happy to have a loving relationship with his parents because as he prepares to have a baby, he’ll need a support system. When we come back, Liam talks about his plans for getting pregnant.

When Liam started taking testosterone at 22, he was warned it could impact his future fertility.

The way that it was posed to me when I started testosterone was like, you can either preserve your fertility ahead of time, or you can choose this testosterone.

And so being young, I was like, well, I don’t want to wait any minute longer to start transitioning to the person that I know I am. And I don’t really care if I have my own kids.

And so at that point in time, I was just kind of like, I’m OK sacrificing a biological child to pursue what I need to do.

But we have more information now. Transgender people do not need to choose between a biological kid and gender-affirming care. Taking hormones could impact fertility, but it’s a small risk.

Many doctors will advise a trans patient to preserve their eggs or sperm before starting hormones in case they want kids later. During his 20s, Liam focused on his transition and creating a life as a man.

He also got married and his spouse didn’t really want kids. So he was content just being a fun uncle for his sister’s children.

So my best friend of like 13 years, she was pregnant with her first child in 2020. Then my friend had her baby and I just, again, I loved like hanging out and being the fun uncle and that was like still cool and fine for me.

And it was fun as we were like, oh, she’s got, you know, Lindsey’s smile and Ryan’s eyes and like kind of picking out those like features where you’re like, oh, like, I wonder what my kid would look like and what the features would be and different

things like that. That kind of started the little wheels turning and then two years later she was pregnant with her second and they ended up having to go to the hospital to be induced.

And so they needed someone to watch their older kid who was 20 months at the time. And so I said, yeah, I can take her for the week.

That was when I realized like how much I liked being a caretaker for a child more so than just like I come over and I hang out for a few hours on Monday and we do like really fun stuff. And then you go take a nap and I leave.

It was like, oh, I like waking up early with you. I like making your breakfast. I like putting you to sleep and giving you a bath and like all those things.

And so then I was like, oh my gosh, I think I want to do this too. But I’m now in this marriage where we decided not to have children. And there are many other reasons why the marriage fell apart besides just that.

But that would have become an issue for sure. So that was like a pivotal moment where I was like, OK, I want to have kids. But I still wasn’t even thinking about like biological kids.

I was just like, I think I want a parent. I definitely know that I want to do that. And whatever that might look like.

It was around this time that Liam saw that video online of a trans man who got pregnant.

And he realized he might actually be able to do it biologically. So he started talking to his doctors about what it would take to try and get pregnant.

First I had to come off of testosterone because testosterone does suppress fertility. It does not make you infertile. I guess technically if you’re on testosterone you are infertile, but it doesn’t make you permanently infertile.

If you come off of it, your cycle will come back and your like egg quality is preserved. Like everything is still there. It’s just been kind of dormantly hanging out.

When I realized like, oh my god, I want to get pregnant, I was like living in my parents’ basement and like just about to get divorced. So it wasn’t really like I’m going to start doing this yet.

It was like, okay, once I get things like sorted out and I’m living on my own again, like that’s something I can start thinking about more.

At the beginning of 2024, Liam was in a place to make some decisions. His divorce was finalized, he had his own place, and the first step was stopping testosterone.

I started the beginning of this year with the tapering of testosterone. Now, there’s not really any like standards of care for this kind of thing. Like I was talking to my hormone prescriber and I was like, is there like a, like what should I do?

And she’s like, you could just stop tomorrow, you could, you could do whatever you want. Really, there’s no like, really like set standards, there’s not a lot of research about it.

So I had decided to taper my dose by 1 ml every month, because there were some times when like supply demand, I didn’t get my testosterone and I would really go through like an emotional little roller coaster for a couple of weeks when I was like,

having gone from high testosterone down to low, it was like, okay, I don’t really want to just like go through that. If I gradually come off it, I feel like that might be easier on the emotions. And so that was just what I decided to do.

And by February, I was on half of my dose I was normally on. And then I was just kind of like, I feel fine.

I’m really just anxious to like get to the part where like my cycle comes back and everything is working because it was also like, will it come back and will it work? I don’t even know.

I could like go through this whole process and it might not happen. So I’ve been off testosterone now for three months. And honestly, I thought it was going to be a lot more of like a jarring emotional transition to go like back in time.

I was like, I’m going to go back to like how it was before. But I definitely have felt more emotional like I can definitely access my emotions more easily. I couldn’t really cry that much when I was on testosterone and like things like that.

But it has not been as kind of dramatic as I thought it was going to be for sure. I went through a period where like one armpit was really stinky and the other one was not stinky at all.

I was really tired for like a month straight because just like my hormones were all wackadoo.

Then Liam got his first period in years.

It was very light and my periods before were like so heavy that I was like, is this really a period? I don’t really know. I mean, like I’m having cramping and things, but it seems like not that much.

And I just kept like waiting for the day. You like woke up in like a bloodbath. That’s like what used to happen eight years ago when I had a period.

So yeah, so it’s like, okay, something’s working, I think.

Which is great news for Liam because you need to have a menstrual cycle in order to get pregnant. But it’s also complicated because all of these changes take him back to a version of himself that never felt comfortable or quite right.

It’s very interesting also to like parallel eight years ago, I was like, I can’t wait to start testosterone and get rid of my period and never have it again. And then it’s like eight years later, I’m like, waiting for it to come back.

I honestly thought I would have a greater struggle with my dysphoria than I have been. For most of my life, I really didn’t think about like anything below the waist about myself at all.

This was like, I just live up here in my head and I don’t nothing else exists. And then like after top surgery, I was like, okay, I’m cool with like my chest and everything, but like the rest, I’m not going to think about it.

But I feel like it’s been a journey of like, I guess, re-experiencing my body in a way that I have not ever before.

I feel like a lot in a lot of ways, it’s like growing up a woman, it’s like you have all these expectations about who you should be and what you should look like and what your body does or doesn’t do and all those things.

And then as a trans person, it’s like almost the mainstream narrative to like, well, I hate my birth sex and I don’t want anything to do with it and all of that.

And it’s like, now I’m getting to kind of like redefine almost what my relationship to myself is.

Part of redefining that relationship is paying attention to his cycle instead of trying to ignore it or make it stop, which is very new for Liam.

I just started using ovulation tests, and I was like, wow, I’ve never peed in this many cups in my life, the little teeny little things, mostly because I don’t really know what my cycle looks like.

I just spent so much time in my before transition life just like ignoring my body and not tuning into it, so now it’s like totally different to be like trying to be like hyper aware of my body in a different way and pay attention.

It’s like, I don’t even know what my cycle length used to be.

I just like knew that sometimes I woke up when I had my period and sometimes I didn’t, you know, but now it’s like wanting to know what my average cycle is so I can figure out when ovulation will happen.

The menstrual cycle was a critical step, and the next piece of the puzzle was finding a sperm donor.

I think a lot about what the story will be, you know, when my child asks, like, why do I exist kind of thing. I always wanted to use a known donor because I wanted there to be a story. Like every kid grows up and asks, why do my parents fall in love?

Why am I here? And I wanted it to be like a meaningful story. I didn’t want to just be like, I picked a profile on some website and they sent me a vial of it, you know, that just felt very disconnected.

And I wanted to demedicalize the process as much as possible. So that sent me down the road of like, OK, what’s this men do I know that aren’t my cousins or like other people who are not options? What’s this men do I trust enough?

And like, you know, the list was very small. I remember going through my Facebook like a thousand times being like, what the hell? And I like went back and forth about it for months on end.

Like, who am I going to ask? My friend was like, I’ll convince my husband to do it. And I was like, no, that’s way too close of a connection.

Like, no, we’re not going to do that.

So I was like trying to find the balance between like too close and too far away.

There was one man who rose to the top, a coworker who Liam really liked.

But a coworker also felt a little too close.

He’s like the perfect candidate.

He’s gay.

He doesn’t want kids. We have a good dynamic. We do drag together.

Like we have this like fun story. Then he ended up leaving. And then I also left the job this year anyway.

But all of a sudden I was like, oh my god, we don’t work together anymore. We’re not coworkers anymore.

Like maybe he would be down for it.

So I just one night was out walking and I was like, how do you ask someone to be your sperm donor? Do you propose to them?

Do you give them a present? Do you have a conversation in person?

Do you send them a letter? Like all these different things. Like how does one do this?

And I was like, I just need to fricking ask him. So I just sent him this rambling text. Hey, so weird question.

Like I kind of want to have a child, but I don’t have all the pieces. And I was like wondering if I could borrow your little guys from my project. And then when the project is complete, you don’t have to do anything else.

And if this is weird, just say that’s fucking weird and we can move on with our lives. And if not, like let me know if I can answer any questions. And he replied within like five minutes.

He’s like, hell yeah, I’m flattered. Happy to help.

How did you feel when you got that response?

I was literally just like, like so excited because I was like, oh my God, like I’ve been preparing for everything else. But like I don’t have the necessary other half.

So like as much preparation as I’m doing, I still can’t really do anything until I figure that part out. And so I was like, oh my God, like this is actually happening.

I figured out a sperm donor.

This is getting more real. Like it was kind of like this idea in my head for like a whole year of like, what I’m going to do and now I’m like actually doing the thing.

But then we got a sperm test just to make sure it was like healthy before we wasted either of our times and it was.

They also signed a legal agreement and came up with a plan for the sperm donor’s involvement.

He was like, you know, I’m down for whatever as long as you don’t die and they bring me the baby. Like just make sure that doesn’t happen.

I was like, do we want it to be like a cultivated relationship where like you’re uncle and you’re intentionally in the life of my child or like you’re just my friend and sometimes you see me out with my baby.

Or do you want to just like go into it like you’re the donor and like here’s this whole special other person, which is honestly the way I’ve landed at this point is just going into it honestly.

Like, yes, we use the donor to create you and like this is who he is.

And maybe we don’t see him all the time, but like he’s if he wants to be at things, he can be and if he doesn’t want to be, he doesn’t have to be, I said, as long as you’re like willing to answer questions when the child’s older and wants to and like

Liam now has all the biological pieces in place.

And once his cycle is regular, he’ll start the insemination process. In the meantime, he’s been thinking a lot about his lifestyle and what he might need to change in order to become a single dad.

I ended up leaving the job I was at because I was like, I have no work-life balance. How am I going to fit a child into like what my day-to-day life looks like? So I’m in between.

I don’t really want to long-term be a house cleaner, but it’s getting me by. But I’m thinking about, okay, what do I want my ideal job to be? Like what kind of benefits do I want?

And like things like that. I’ve worked service-related jobs like forever, never had benefits, never had like retirement or any of that.

And suddenly as I’m like thinking of like starting down this journey, it’s like all of a sudden I’m like, I want a job that gives me paid time off.

And I want a job that gives me benefits and like things that are going to be good for me and for, you know, a child where I had said like never, ever considered it before. I was like, whatever, I’ll figure it out. I don’t care.

When suddenly I care more about like having balance in my life, I’ve been trying to kind of like think about, okay, this is what I need to bring in. And one of my best friends is so supportive.

She’s like, we’re going to sit down and figure out your budget and we’re going to get you all squared away because I don’t want you to be so willy nilly when you’re bringing a kid into the world.

And I’m like, yes, ma’am. So I’ve got the fire under my ass for sure.

Another thing that kind of pivoted my mindset of like, what I want to do for work was like looking into daycare. So I was like, oh my god, it’s so expensive. And my brother-in-law works a remote job and he stays home with their son for the most part.

And they have like a nanny for a little bit of the day. And so I was like, oh, if I could find something remote, I could like have a pretty similar setup, which would be a lot less money than sending my child to daycare.

Liam is unbelievably intentional in his preparation to have a baby. Very thoughtful. It’s something I’ve noticed with all the queer people in my life.

Because queer fertility doesn’t happen by accident, everything needs to be planned. And that leads to a lot of self-reflection. When we come back, Liam shares about how preparing for pregnancy is challenging his feelings around his gender identity.

After a lifetime of feeling uncomfortable with femininity, Liam says he’s surprised at how well he’s doing with the thought of having a menstrual cycle again and being pregnant.

It’s been an interesting experience, but it has bothered me less than I thought it would. I was like, this is going to be really hard, but I’m just going to push through it.

I even thought having a period again would really trigger me, because for many years I was like, if my period ever comes back, that’s just going to be so horrible.

If you had told me even five years ago that I would do this, I’d be like, no, I do not want my period, I do not want to do any of that.

But as Liam has established himself as a man, he’s changed his relationship with the idea of pregnancy and periods.

It really started with A, seeing representation of other trans people doing it, and being able to separate pregnancy from womanhood and femininity, and being like, this is a really cool thing that my body can do, and I want to do it.

So being able to separate it from, it is a very gendered world to be entering into. I for sure know that I’m entering into a space where I’m constantly going to be like, and me. Even just prenatal vitamins, it’s like, good for mom and baby.

And I was like, can’t we just say like uterus and fetus? Like, do we have to say mom and baby? If this was me like seven or eight years ago, I would have been so deeply hurt to be put into the woman category still.

But now I’m like, the woman category is stupid.

I’m entering the category anyway.

As a transgender person, Liam has had to figure out the right words and language for his experience. Getting pregnant is a whole new chapter of that.

Fatherhood, parenthood, like gestational parent is a term that is used a lot just to kind of like de-gender it, especially in like same-sex couples. There’s always the like birth parents and then the non-birth parents.

So it’s like gestational parent and non-gestational parent, you know, there’s so many different words. I want to be seen in the same way that anyone else is seen when they’re becoming a parent.

But it is an interesting like intersection to be like, I want to be obviously acknowledged as the father of my child, because that’s who I am.

But also I want to be acknowledged for the like pregnancy and birthing experience I will have, which is obviously much more women centric experience. I just want really to be seen as someone entering parenthood in a unique way.

I think it’ll be interesting to like experience, especially like as a child grows, being a father amongst other fathers. But I have the same experience as the women. And so like, what will that dynamic be like?

And so, I don’t know if there’s like an intersecting like way or term or like a way to sum that up.

Actually, we’ve got one. As we worked on this episode, we did find a term that could work for Liam. Seahorse Dad.

In nature, male seahorses actually carry the babies and give birth, not females. Seahorse Dad is a term we’ve seen some pregnant transgender men call themselves. But giving birth as a man is still new.

Liam hasn’t found consistent medical advice, and not every doctor, nurse or doula has worked with a trans patient. So Liam has had to try and find resources to guide himself through the process.

I found some like good queer resources that are good at like de-gendering, like the one where baby making for everybody, I think is what it was called. But it was very much like, if you have sperm, read chapter six.

If you have eggs, read chapter five. Not like if you’re a woman, read this. And like very much broke it down by just like, here’s how things are going to work, which I appreciated.

Definitely feels lonely at times, just being the only person I know around me that’s like on a similar journey. As much as people in my life can be like sympathetic and try to understand the experience, they just won’t.

Which is true of many aspects of my life experience.

No one else in my circle is divorced.

No one else in my circle is transitioned. So it’s like I’ve kind of always been on my own little offshoots, many different offshoots at this point.

And that loneliness in this experience is a small worry for Liam. While he feels confident about his choice and is preparing himself as much as possible, he knows it will be a little different when other people know.

I think for a lot of people, they just think, oh, you’re transitioned, so you’re not going to get pregnant or have children. It’s not like an option on the list of like things that people do. My pregnant man is not like a common sight.

And so I think about that a lot. Like, what will people think? And having to explain myself a lot, it feels like a little bit daunting.

People are always judging what you do no matter what. Whether you do or don’t do something, they’re going to say something, so like whatever. I need to just not think about what other people are going to think.

But people’s reactions are on his mind.

A pregnant man is not a common sight, and Liam knows some people might not react well.

To see someone with a beard and also a pregnant belly, like those two things clash with each other in society’s view of what a pregnant person looks like and what a man looks like, those two images don’t go together very often at all.

Most people tend to respond to pregnant women with a warm smile or patiently slowing down to let them cross the crosswalk or offering their seat on the bus. Liam can’t help but think about his own safety if he goes out into the world pregnant.

Especially in like late-term pregnancy where it’s like very obvious.

You know, but I think there is going to be a point where it’s like I’ve crossed the line from just like possibly just being a guy who has a big belly to like, huh, what’s going on kind of thing. And so I think about that a lot.

I was thinking about the other day, I was like, here I am, just like in the gas station, like getting the soda. Am I going to do this when I’m eight months pregnant?

Probably not, because I don’t want to just be like staying around with all the other like dudes in line. You know, I feel like there is like a safety element that I have to consider as far as like what the general public will make of me.

Liam has been creating videos about his experience as he tries to get pregnant. He just wants more people to understand the trans experience, so he feels less like an anomaly. Liam knows how powerful a personal story can be.

I mean, it was an Instagram video from a pregnant trans man that inspired him to do this himself in the first place. And there are others who came before. 16 years ago, in 2008, there was a big news story about Thomas Beattie, a pregnant man.

I thought about seeing everything and then I saw a pregnant man.

Thomas and his wife Nancy announced on our show that they were having a girl.

This man was also transgender and carrying a child.

He was on Oprah and the cover of magazines and all the stories framed it as a marvel. For teenage Liam, who hadn’t transitioned, it was an inspiration.

I can remember being a young teen and being like, I want to do that. I can’t really connect those dots, but I just like, I remember thinking that’s cool and I want to do it.

That’s why Liam is volunteering his story now before he’s even gotten pregnant. He wants other trans men to know it’s possible to have kids and for other people to celebrate this experience just like they would for a pregnant woman.

I just feel like it’s either like sensationalized as like, the pregnant man, how is that possible?

Or people just don’t think it’s possible because again, a lot of trans people don’t or they like, they have hysterectomy and they go through all the surgeries and it’s not even an option anymore.

Back in the day, in order to like have your like sex change on your documents, you had to have proof that you had like fully gone through all the surgeries and so a lot of people did have to make the choice of like, do I want to be legally recognized

Liam has told his close friends and his sister that he’s trying to get pregnant.

He’s making YouTube videos to share with a wider audience. And he’s sharing with us here at Refamulating. But he still hasn’t told his parents.

They struggled so much with him being trans that he can’t really predict how they will feel about him having a baby.

I have a session with my therapist soon because I was like, I don’t even know how to tell my family what I’m doing.

People will always have something to say, which is I think where some of my hesitation towards telling my family lies because I’ve always been on my own path, like we’ve said many times, but my sister has followed the exact right path that they

wanted her to, which has its own whole host of issues that she has as a result of being the golden child and I was the problem child. But I just feel like they’re going to be like, well, why aren’t you married?

And all the things that they probably wish I would do. Because I know that I’m already like existing as a person that they wish was a different person.

So then it’s like everything I’m accomplishing feels like, well, we wish it was different, you know, kind of just like if I have a kid, are they going to be as excited as my nephew when he was born? Or is it going to be like a little lower?

Because they wish I was like married to a man and a woman and doing it in a marriage and all those different things. But I could be surprised, honestly, I might be surprised, maybe they will be so happy.

So yeah, I worry about, I guess I worry about people’s judgment. As much as I want to say, I don’t care what anyone thinks, but it’s hard not to also think that, you know, we’re all human beings.

Whether or not his parents are on board, Liam does have a support system that’s ready to be his village, if and when his child arrives.

I have many wonderful friends who all have children as well. And I know that they will support me in the same way that I’ve, you know, supported them in their parenting. And I’ve got my sister.

And I actually just started dating someone in the last couple months. And that’s been interesting because I embarked on this journey being like, I’m going to be a single parent and I’m totally okay with that.

And I just kind of just like fell into this relationship. That’s really wonderful. And she already has a son.

And I basically told her, I said, this is what I’m doing. I’m not pausing my journey because we’re now dating each other. I’m going to still continue to pursue having a baby.

But she’s like, that’s fine.

I can’t wait to like clean your house for you and rub your feet.

So that’s been nice because I was, I feel like I definitely was choosing between like dating or becoming a parent because honestly, I was like, I don’t want to try and date someone to figure out if they’re going to be a good parent.

What have you learned that you want to share with other trans people who might be trying to get pregnant? Other trans men who might be trying to get pregnant?

I went into it thinking this is going to be so hard. This is just going to be so hard, but I want to do it. And it’s just been so much easier than I thought it was going to be.

I mean, obviously, everyone has different experiences. Because I’ve read so many different things. And other people, it was very hard to be off to Sosterone and go through the whole process.

But I’ve been surprised by the lack of lows. And maybe they’re coming for me. I don’t know.

Maybe I’m just still in the high zone of like, ask me after a couple of failed insemination attempts where I’m at. You know, we’ll see. But yeah, and just like do what feels best for you.

It’s like we’ve talked about already. People are going to judge you no matter what you’re doing. So like, if you know that this is your path to parenthood, then just take it and define it for yourself.

Liam mentioned a few times looking in the mirror at different points in his life and seeing or not seeing the right version of himself.

So I asked him to imagine looking in the mirror as a pregnant person and what he might see then.

Mom, my belly is super hairy. I just picture like a big, pregnant, hairy belly.

Liam, we are just sending you so much love and good wishes as you try and get pregnant. We hope that you have a big hairy belly soon. Liam’s YouTube channel is live.

You can find it in our show notes. If you want to learn more about some of the books Liam’s been reading as he prepares for pregnancy, check out this week’s newsletter.

This is our last episode of Season 1, and we want to thank all of you for listening. Wow. We’ll be back in a few months with Season 2.

If you want to share your story, head to our website to fill out the form. We hope to hear from you. And if you want to connect with us live, we’re hosting our first virtual event on July 11th.

We’re calling it the Refamily Dinner, and it’s going to be a place to connect with us and with other people who are Refamulating. Get more information and RSVP at our website, refamulating.com.

While we’re on a break between Season 1 and Season 2, stay connected with us on Instagram at Refamulating. You can also subscribe to our newsletter. We write about our experiences of Refamulating and we share resources for you and your journey.

Our newsletter is also a great place to stay informed about what’s coming for Season 2. If you like this podcast, please share it with someone. You can also write us a review.

We want everyone who’s Refamulating to be able to find us. As an independent podcast, we’re also super grateful for any financial support. You can make a donation at our website, refamulating.com.

Refamulating is hosted by me, Julia Winston. Claire McInerny is our executive producer. Grace Berry is our manager of engagement.

This episode was mixed and scored by Josh Gilbert. Our theme music was composed by Luke Topp. Special thanks to Nadia Hamdan for editorial support on this episode.

Refamulating is a production of the Feelings & Co. Network.